Today's Articles


Question:

Thanks Julie , I will give Family Dollar a try for it ! tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Julie , > My experience seems to have shown that the Hydrocortesone prescription > cream base rubs-in-to the skin well , and , the OTC cream ( at least > generic ) leaves a greasey residue and does not fully rub-in which is > probably partially why the OTC barely works at all . > Hmm…  I haven’t noticed that and I usually buy whatever is the cheapest. > Currently I have some stuff from Family Dollar.  Worked just fine on > mosquito bites.

Response:

Yes , thanks Julie , I will get it at Family Dollar this time as doggie needs it , and I will try it too !!! I think the last generic ( greasy cream ) was CVS store brand . ( at least it was the cheapest that CVS had at that time ) Most CVS store-brand and/or generic items are good though , strange , but I won’t buy Hydrocortesone cream there anymore . tim   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Julie , > My experience seems to have shown that the Hydrocortesone prescription > cream base rubs-in-to the skin well , and , the OTC cream ( at least > generic ) leaves a greasey residue and does not fully rub-in which is > probably partially why the OTC barely works at all . > Hmm…  I haven’t noticed that and I usually buy whatever is the cheapest. > Currently I have some stuff from Family Dollar.  Worked just fine on > mosquito bites.

Response:

> I am pretty-dog-gone-sure that it is mostly the CHEAP cream base that > makes Over The Counter Hydrocortesone a waste of time and money .

Some of my prescription stuff seems to have the same base.  Just a higher concentration of steroid. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

Julie , My experience seems to have shown that the Hydrocortesone prescription cream base rubs-in-to the skin well , and , the OTC cream ( at least generic ) leaves a greasey residue and does not fully rub-in which is probably partially why the OTC barely works at all . tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am pretty-dog-gone-sure that it is mostly the CHEAP cream base that > makes Over The Counter Hydrocortesone a waste of time and money . > Some of my prescription stuff seems to have the same base.  Just a higher > concentration of steroid.

Response:

> Julie , > My experience seems to have shown that the Hydrocortesone prescription > cream base rubs-in-to the skin well , and , the OTC cream ( at least > generic ) leaves a greasey residue and does not fully rub-in which is > probably partially why the OTC barely works at all .

Hmm…  I haven’t noticed that and I usually buy whatever is the cheapest. Currently I have some stuff from Family Dollar.  Worked just fine on mosquito bites. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

Then buy the ointment instead of the cream. At least then it will stick. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am pretty-dog-gone-sure that it is mostly the CHEAP cream base that > makes Over The Counter Hydrocortesone a waste of time and money . > tim > > I never thought about any difference.  Are each "kind" the same > > strength?   Some prescription items for OTC are a lower potency. > > Read the label.  Quite a difference in cost and many OTC items are > > the same as a prescription.  I have had a pharmacist go to  the > > counter and take the item to prescribe.   Each case may be different. > > Read the labels. Cortisone reduces the inflammation but may not get to > > the root cause of a problem.  In other cases it may provide the edge > > to cure a problem.  I do know some higher strength steroids will work > > better on Poison Ivy.   There is a time to see a doctor > Yes, there are different strengths.  The OTC stuff is milder than the > prescription, although you can get mild prescription stuff too.  And there > are different bases.  We have already discussed the cream and ointment but > it also comes in gel form.  This is good for a person with oily skin, or in > my case for use with the compression hosiery.  The pharmacist can also mix > additional ingredients such as fungal things.

– Chuck -

Question:

Vioxx is NOT an antibiotic, it is a NSAID – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I truly believe that Vioxx raised my BGS!!!  I tried it several times with > the same result being higher BGS   Memory

Response:

cc’d by email Excellent Guy, I was trying to thinkl about how to describe the math. It is REAL esoteric stuff, I have trouble following the model, but you put it in words most can understand – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I had the same problem with Keflex exactly!  It was not the infection >>as I have the same problem when I take E-mycin for gastroparesis.  The >>Bg goes sky high. >>The doc said it was due to the antibiotic and that he had seen this >>happen an number of times. >Hmmm…  I took Keflex only once and broke out head to toe in hives.  Wasn’t >a diabetic then (or at least I don’t think so), but they did take my BG >while I was in the hospital and it wasn’t high. > There was a good Swiss study as to why some problems became worse > when antibiotics were used.  That was followed by improvement. > The reasons given was that our body responds to  components of the > pathogen.   These increase when the antibiotic becomes effective. > Long lost the article. > Infections produce gross changes in blood sugar in my case.  I see > infection development in blood sugars before other symptoms. >                                                    Guy

Response:

Yes.  I know it is not an antibiotic.  It is an anti-inflammatory.  Just wanted to share that it seemed to cause my BGS to go up as well as celebrex–another anti-inflammatory.    Thank you.   Memory

Response:

>Yes.  I know it is not an antibiotic.  It is an anti-inflammatory.  Just >wanted to share that it seemed to cause my BGS to go up as well as >celebrex–another anti-inflammatory.    Thank you.   Memory

My  understanding is that anti-intiflammatory items will raise BG. I also understand they will not cure infections but give symptomatic relief.  The should be used with care.                                      Guy

Response:

I truly believe that Vioxx raised my BGS!!!  I tried it several times with the same result being higher BGS   Memory

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I had the same problem with Keflex exactly!  It was not the infection > as I have the same problem when I take E-mycin for gastroparesis.  The > Bg goes sky high. > The doc said it was due to the antibiotic and that he had seen this > happen an number of times. >Hmmm…  I took Keflex only once and broke out head to toe in hives.  Wasn’t >a diabetic then (or at least I don’t think so), but they did take my BG >while I was in the hospital and it wasn’t high.

There was a good Swiss study as to why some problems became worse when antibiotics were used.  That was followed by improvement. The reasons given was that our body responds to  components of the pathogen.   These increase when the antibiotic becomes effective. Long lost the article. Infections produce gross changes in blood sugar in my case.  I see infection development in blood sugars before other symptoms.                                                    Guy

Response:

> I had the same problem with Keflex exactly!  It was not the infection > as I have the same problem when I take E-mycin for gastroparesis.  The > Bg goes sky high. > The doc said it was due to the antibiotic and that he had seen this > happen an number of times.

Hmmm…  I took Keflex only once and broke out head to toe in hives.  Wasn’t a diabetic then (or at least I don’t think so), but they did take my BG while I was in the hospital and it wasn’t high. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

I had the same problem with Keflex exactly!  It was not the infection as I have the same problem when I take E-mycin for gastroparesis.  The Bg goes sky high. The doc said it was due to the antibiotic and that he had seen this happen an number of times. Zbrigid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi gang, >   I got a thumbnail infection about 11/2 wks ago, my bg’s were great, > during that time.  The doc’s thought that I should have a course of > Keflex (antibodic), started them on Wed… and  one hour after taking > the pill, my bg’s rose up to 279, and stayed in the area for the next 4 > hours.  I am on th pump, so did all the checks , changed the site, and > the whole set up, plus gave myself  SQ injections…..no ketones , but > still high.  Called the NE last nite and she has me adjusting my basal > rates and increased the units for the meal boluses…….still  having > the high bg’s. She thought that I am having some kind of reaction on a > cellular level, that is causing this problem…due to allergies this is > the only antibodics that I can take.  Anyone have any thoughts on this, > or have you ever heard of this problem?  My meals have remained the same > thru out the whole time I have been on the pump, that was started on > March 23rd.  I will be in daily contact with the NE,,,,just was > wondering if anyone else has had such a problem!! > Mic > Always, be, and stay AWARE!

Response:

I used Keflex for an extended period of time last year after a surgical incision would not heal. After the infection died down, my BG’s improved. I still took Keflex for another week or so after things had cleared up. (I am one of the few who finish their anti-biotics I guess) and my Bg’s stayed in control. Just anecdotal evidence, I know. Good Luck! Sleepy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi gang, >   I got a thumbnail infection about 11/2 wks ago, my bg’s were great, > during that time.  The doc’s thought that I should have a course of > Keflex (antibodic), started them on Wed… and  one hour after taking > the pill, my bg’s rose up to 279, and stayed in the area for the next 4 > hours.  I am on th pump, so did all the checks , changed the site, and > the whole set up, plus gave myself  SQ injections…..no ketones , but > still high.  Called the NE last nite and she has me adjusting my basal > rates and increased the units for the meal boluses…….still  having > the high bg’s. She thought that I am having some kind of reaction on a > cellular level, that is causing this problem…due to allergies this is > the only antibodics that I can take.  Anyone have any thoughts on this, > or have you ever heard of this problem?  My meals have remained the same > thru out the whole time I have been on the pump, that was started on > March 23rd.  I will be in daily contact with the NE,,,,just was > wondering if anyone else has had such a problem!! >My guess is that it is the infection causing the high BG and not the >antibiotic.  I went through a very bad patch of having infections on my legs >due to misdiagnosis of what I have.  The Drs. kept telling me it was >psoriasis when in fact it was something due to a vein problem.  So the veins >continued to leak blood, my legs continued to swell and the only thing I was >ever told to do was apply a steroid cream.  My legs looked worse and worse. >I suspected an infection, yet none of my Drs. would do anything about it. >They merely told me to see a dermatologist.  I did, eventually.  But I had a >hard time getting in to see one.  As it turned out, my legs were indeed >infected!  In the meantime, my BG had been raging out of control.  My Endo. >prescribed Starlix and that helped a bit to get the BG down.  But I was >still fighting high BG until I went on antibiotics and the infection >cleared.  Unfortunately, I continued to have problems with this off and on >until I finally saw different Dr. who gave me a correct diagnosis.

Response:

>cc’d by email >no Matt, the recverse is true >INFECTIONS make BG crazy (mainly up) antibiotics can help.  They are >more likely to cause BG to DROP

I believe Micki is not the first person I’ve seen anecdotally reporting an effect on BG by antibiotics.  There are a variety of meds which can affect BG.  Yes, infection can raise BG, but that doesn’t mean that NO antibiotic will. Priscilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi gang, >   I got a thumbnail infection about 11/2 wks ago, my bg’s were great, > during that time.  The doc’s thought that I should have a course of > Keflex (antibodic), started them on Wed… and  one hour after taking > the pill, my bg’s rose up to 279, and stayed in the area for the next 4 > hours.  I am on th pump, so did all the checks , changed the site, and > the whole set up, plus gave myself  SQ injections…..no ketones , but > still high.  Called the NE last nite and she has me adjusting my basal > rates and increased the units for the meal boluses…….still  having > the high bg’s. She thought that I am having some kind of reaction on a > cellular level, that is causing this problem…due to allergies this is > the only antibodics that I can take.  Anyone have any thoughts on this, > or have you ever heard of this problem?  My meals have remained the same > thru out the whole time I have been on the pump, that was started on > March 23rd.  I will be in daily contact with the NE,,,,just was > wondering if anyone else has had such a problem!! > Mic > Always, be, and stay AWARE!

– "I would listen to Priscilla. Her advice is excellent!"            – Frankenmel (Sharon) on alt.support.menopause

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi gang, >   I got a thumbnail infection about 11/2 wks ago, my bg’s were great, > during that time.  The doc’s thought that I should have a course of > Keflex (antibodic), started them on Wed… and  one hour after taking > the pill, my bg’s rose up to 279, and stayed in the area for the next 4 > hours.  I am on th pump, so did all the checks , changed the site, and > the whole set up, plus gave myself  SQ injections…..no ketones , but > still high.  Called the NE last nite and she has me adjusting my basal > rates and increased the units for the meal boluses…….still  having > the high bg’s. She thought that I am having some kind of reaction on a > cellular level, that is causing this problem…due to allergies this is > the only antibodics that I can take.  Anyone have any thoughts on this, > or have you ever heard of this problem?  My meals have remained the same > thru out the whole time I have been on the pump, that was started on > March 23rd.  I will be in daily contact with the NE,,,,just was > wondering if anyone else has had such a problem!!

My guess is that it is the infection causing the high BG and not the antibiotic.  I went through a very bad patch of having infections on my legs due to misdiagnosis of what I have.  The Drs. kept telling me it was psoriasis when in fact it was something due to a vein problem.  So the veins continued to leak blood, my legs continued to swell and the only thing I was ever told to do was apply a steroid cream.  My legs looked worse and worse. I suspected an infection, yet none of my Drs. would do anything about it. They merely told me to see a dermatologist.  I did, eventually.  But I had a hard time getting in to see one.  As it turned out, my legs were indeed infected!  In the meantime, my BG had been raging out of control.  My Endo. prescribed Starlix and that helped a bit to get the BG down.  But I was still fighting high BG until I went on antibiotics and the infection cleared.  Unfortunately, I continued to have problems with this off and on until I finally saw different Dr. who gave me a correct diagnosis. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

cc’d by email no Matt, the recverse is true INFECTIONS make BG crazy (mainly up) antibiotics can help.  They are more likely to cause BG to DROP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi gang, >   I got a thumbnail infection about 11/2 wks ago, my bg’s were great, > during that time.  The doc’s thought that I should have a course of > Keflex (antibodic), started them on Wed… and  one hour after taking > the pill, my bg’s rose up to 279, and stayed in the area for the next 4 > hours.  I am on th pump, so did all the checks , changed the site, and > the whole set up, plus gave myself  SQ injections…..no ketones , but > still high.  Called the NE last nite and she has me adjusting my basal > rates and increased the units for the meal boluses…….still  having > the high bg’s. She thought that I am having some kind of reaction on a > cellular level, that is causing this problem…due to allergies this is > the only antibodics that I can take.  Anyone have any thoughts on this, > or have you ever heard of this problem?  My meals have remained the same > thru out the whole time I have been on the pump, that was started on > March 23rd.  I will be in daily contact with the NE,,,,just was > wondering if anyone else has had such a problem!! > Mic > Always, be, and stay AWARE!

Response:

Hi gang,   I got a thumbnail infection about 11/2 wks ago, my bg’s were great, during that time.  The doc’s thought that I should have a course of Keflex (antibodic), started them on Wed… and  one hour after taking the pill, my bg’s rose up to 279, and stayed in the area for the next 4 hours.  I am on th pump, so did all the checks , changed the site, and the whole set up, plus gave myself  SQ injections…..no ketones , but still high.  Called the NE last nite and she has me adjusting my basal rates and increased the units for the meal boluses…….still  having the high bg’s. She thought that I am having some kind of reaction on a cellular level, that is causing this problem…due to allergies this is the only antibodics that I can take.  Anyone have any thoughts on this, or have you ever heard of this problem?  My meals have remained the same thru out the whole time I have been on the pump, that was started on March 23rd.  I will be in daily contact with the NE,,,,just was wondering if anyone else has had such a problem!! Mic Always, be, and stay AWARE!

Response:

Question:

I have used the Dead Sea Salts many times. It did seem to soothe my skin, but I did not see any improvement in the psoriasis. I have also used the Aveeno oatmeal treatments (and the genric forms of it, too, which work as well) & I had the same experience. Very soothing & moisturizing, but not really a treatment for psoriais. When I first developed psoriasis, I had trouble finding the Dead Sea Salts. Now, they seem to be everywhere. I have seen them at the drugstore & at several health & mineral stores around where I live. The last time I went to TJ Maxx, they had a whole line of Dead Sea products (lotion, bathsoap, soaking salts,etc) for a very cheap price. I tried some of that stuff out, too, but again, no medicial cure-all to be found. I have heard that going to the Dead Sea is a great idea if you can afford it. I also saw a very strange piece on Animal Planet once & was wondering if anyone else had seen it or knows what I am talking about–there is someplace in the general area of the Dead Sea where you may go & soak & there are fish in the water that will nibble on your psoriasis scales. I have no idea what the fish were called, but doctors believe there is something in their salivia that helps psoriasis clear up (why aren’t they bottling this stuff??)There was even footage of psoriasis sufferers sitting in the water & of the fish swimming up to them–I know this sounds really bizarre, but I am not making it up. I wish I had paid more attention at the time. Anyway, there are my two cents, and if you have any idea what I am talking about in the last paragraph, please let me know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > any recommendations on how much to use in a bath  , where to purchase, and any > therapy to use in conjunction  paul

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have used the Dead Sea Salts many times. It did seem to soothe my > skin, but I did not see any improvement in the psoriasis. I have also > used the Aveeno oatmeal treatments (and the genric forms of it, too, > which work as well) & I had the same experience. Very soothing & > moisturizing, but not really a treatment for psoriais. > When I first developed psoriasis, I had trouble finding the Dead Sea > Salts. Now, they seem to be everywhere. I have seen them at the > drugstore & at several health & mineral stores around where I live. > The last time I went to TJ Maxx, they had a whole line of Dead Sea > products (lotion, bathsoap, soaking salts,etc) for a very cheap price. > I tried some of that stuff out, too, but again, no medicial cure-all > to be found. > I have heard that going to the Dead Sea is a great idea if you can > afford it. > I also saw a very strange piece on Animal Planet once & was wondering > if anyone else had seen it or knows what I am talking about–there is > someplace in the general area of the Dead Sea where you may go & soak > & there are fish in the water that will nibble on your psoriasis > scales. I have no idea what the fish were called, but doctors believe > there is something in their salivia that helps psoriasis clear up (why > aren’t they bottling this stuff??)There was even footage of psoriasis > sufferers sitting in the water & of the fish swimming up to them–I > know this sounds really bizarre, but I am not making it up. I wish I > had paid more attention at the time. > Anyway, there are my two cents, and if you have any idea what I am > talking about in the last paragraph, please let me know.

What you saw was in Turkey not Israel. Search for kangal fish and you will find it. I know a guy who went there. It didn’t work half as well as the dead sea. The clearance he saw was contributed to a cream they supplied. He had a bad flare up after he stopped using the cream. So he  suspects it contained corticosteriods.

Response:

http://pinch.com/skinny?skin=%22nibble+fish%22 That should give you the results of a search under the term "nibble fish" which you should find interesting.  Nope, not a cure, nor even a common treatment, but interesting none-the-less. Here is a recent post by Ed on the topic, which is a common one around here: The topic of the turkish nibble-fish has come around yet again. These "doctor fish" that reportedly nibble away psoriasis can be experienced at a thermal spa near the town of Kangul, in the province of Sivas, Turkey.  Here’s some historical newsgroup posts: http://pinch.com/skinny?skin=nibblefish+or+kangal For an inspiring story about psoriatic comraderie at the spa, see this story by Ron Alcalay from 1995 that first got my attention: http://english-www.hss.cmu.edu/BS/21/alcalay.html I’ve been advised that there are now people breeding and selling the fish for home treatment. They seem to be coming from Germany, but there are websites in Switzerland and at least one spa in Austria: http://pinch.com/skinny?web=garra-rufa+aquarium The little carp naturally appear in other places in the mideast and are probably in aquariums around the world, but this selling of the fish with the spa story apparently has the turkish tourism folks upset. They put out a newspaper blurb (in response to a story I can’t find online) saying that the stories are a fraud, the fish were "stolen" away to Germany, and they can’t survive outside the spa: http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_editions/11_24_01/dom2.htm#d20 The fish seem to be breeding just fine in aquariums, and there are photos of them nibbling just like at Kengal. Some detailed reports from the spa describe two subspecies, a "licker" and "striker" (ouch). Another research study reports that the spa fish breeding habits are in sync with the peak tourist seasons, possibly because of the increased food supply… I’m sure the story (and the fish) will continue to spread far and wide, given the demand for all natural alternative treatments. Funny thing, one site claims that the fish actually inject enzymes and a bit of natural dithranol (anthralin) back into the skin. That’s highly unlikely. It will be interesting to see how far the speculation goes. — Ed "scaled back" Anderson LadyAndy Chat live with us at >http://tinyurl.com/4ust < (this is at iVillageHealth – my chats are on Sun evenings at 10 ET) Joint Replacement Board at http://boards.ivillagehealth.com/cgi-bin/boards/bhivhjointreplace

Response:

any recommendations on how much to use in a bath  , where to purchase, and any therapy to use in conjunction  paul

Response:

Question:

I have used the cream off and on and  it appears to help with the scaling, I recently added the tincture, which i horrible tasting.  I will let you how well this works.

Response:

> I have used the cream off and on and  it appears to help with the scaling, I > recently added the tincture, which i horrible tasting.  I will let you how well > this works.

Hi, Thanks for your dedication to the anecdotal cure of P. How much p do you have? How long? Age of onset, etc? Oregon grape has been on my things to do list. I’ll grab up some info, Berberis aquifolium     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… It may be an adjunct to horny goat weed? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… If it works on fungi, then i’ll stick with grating some frozen ginger into my hot steaming fresh green tea. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… Btw, enter berberine into the search box of any of the above for over a 1000 hits. If you add psoriasis into that search you’ll get this, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… Good luck with that tincture. How many drops and what potency is it? If you get worse first don’t give up to fast. I’ve found that herbs have a tendency to shake things up. Then again wise judgement and bailing out are ok also. randall..

Response:

I have it on my joints for the most part and my scalp. I got it when I was living in Texas  in 1999.

Response:

The tincture tastes like moonshine with a kick, you take approx 3 tbs daily or i tbs 3 x’s daily

Response:

Question:

>Also, I was under the impression that psoriasis could not be >spread–is this only through the nails?

Psoriasis is not contagious, neither to another person nor to another area on a single individual.  That post that said that is was was in error.   There is something called the Koebner effect where any minor or major injury to the skin may develop psoriasis in an individual who is already prone to psoriasis.  That means if you scratch your skin, you may either get psoriasis there or you may make psoriasis you already have there worse.  Perhaps that is what caused the poster’s confusion. In any case, psoriasis absolutely is NOT CONTAGIOUS.  Never was, never will be… (if it were, my brother would have gotten it from me long, long ago…) LadyAndy Chat live with us at >http://tinyurl.com/4ust < (this is at iVillageHealth – my chats are on Sun evenings at 10 ET) Joint Replacement Board at http://boards.ivillagehealth.com/cgi-bin/boards/bhivhjointreplace

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Also, I was under the impression that psoriasis could not be >spread–is this only through the nails? > Psoriasis is not contagious, neither to another person nor to another area on a > single individual.  That post that said that is was was in error. > There is something called the Koebner effect where any minor or major injury to > the skin may develop psoriasis in an individual who is already prone to > psoriasis.  That means if you scratch your skin, you may either get psoriasis > there or you may make psoriasis you already have there worse.  Perhaps that is > what caused the poster’s confusion. > In any case, psoriasis absolutely is NOT CONTAGIOUS.  Never was, never will > be…

Someone better not be trying to start a rumor like this either…imagine the outcome if it were main stream

Response:

> Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some > problems with my toenails in the past. > My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has > anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin > supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something > to stop it before it gets out of hand. > I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

Last year, the P started affecting my nails as well, hands and feet. They’re actually in pretty good shape right now (albeit somewhat thicker in some cases – but not all). I noticed that whenever there was any damage to my nails (like when the nail was actually lifted up a little – getting caught on a counter, or something), that’s when the P would start to affect that nail.  I make sure that I keep my nails trimmed short and try to put clear nail polish on them every once in awhile to protect the nail (but not when they’re in bad shape). I also soak my hands and feet in one or two capfuls of Doak Oil Forte in a dish tub of warm water for 15 minutes nightly. This helps soften the skin and loosen the scales. This way you can get the topicals right on the damaged skin. I still keep this up even tho’ my nails are in okay shape (although they still have a few pits here and there). But as soon as my nail is damaged I cut it right down as short as possible and I always have short nails. Good Luck barbara

Response:

 WHAT!!  Please corect me people if I am wrong, but I was of the firm understanding that psoriasis cannot be passed on from one area of the body to another any more than it can be passed on from one person to another.  - – You’re correct.  Not only that, but a psoriasis lession is not an infection (although it could get infected).

Response:

>Just read the entire page is all I ask.  Because their is some good reading >amoung the stuff they what you to buy.

Actually, every bit of info on that page is there to try to get you to buy the product(s) listed.  One thing you don’t see is any reports on studies where tea tree oil or oregano oil was tested against a standard antifungal drug.  And distilled water is not a good substitute for soap. Wouldn’t you like to see the results of that kind of test prior to deciding whether or not to buy their stuff or go to a doctor?  One study listed had at least one patient being treated for six _years_ with tea tree oil before a cure was effected, forcryingoutloud!  If any regular doctor took that long to effect a cure of a fungal infection, he’d soon find himself without a license to practice medicine. From the reports and snippets from popular-press books (anybody can write a book) listed on that page, the only conclusion one can reasonably draw is that tea tree oil (or oregano oil) is better than no treatment whatsoever.  This is a very far cry from the page’s statements that these things are the "optimal" treatments for a variety of diseases.  Such claims are not supported either by that web page, or by what a person can find in Medline. They even go so far as to claim that "impeccable hygiene" can prevent colds and flu.  It can’t – it can just reduce the risk of catching them.  Unless what they mean by that phrase is "living in a bubble." – Dave W. http://psorsite.com/

Response:

>My Doctors believe that those fungus infections >"could have" caused my psoriasis but are not certain.

Fungal infections may have _triggered_ the skin symptoms of psoriasis, but they don’t cause the disease. >I could rub my >psoriasis body all over my wifes, and she would never get psoriasis.  But >let me scratch here legs with my fungus infected nails.  Then we wonder if >she would catch something.  And then if she did could it turn into >psorisises?

She might catch a fungal infection, but unless she’s got the genes for psoriasis, and the fungal infection happens to trigger the skin symptoms, it won’t "turn into" psoriasis. – Dave W. http://psorsite.com/

Response:

Thanks to everyone who posted–I am sure at least one of these suggestions will work. I will keep you posted. Also, I was under the impression that psoriasis could not be spread–is this only through the nails? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The main purpose of the Enbrel is to deal with my P-arthritis, > Yes, unless your psoriasis is severe, I would reserve Enbrel for those with > active psoriatic arthritis. >I >swear that my pain has already begun dimiishing.  (I observe it could be >partly placebo–but if it works, so what). > In the newsgroup alt.support.arthritis , the response is somewhat variable, but > some people get results within the first two INJECTIONS!  Amazing.  However, > others find the effect takes longer, up to 4 – 6 months for maximum benefit. > Probably those who have had no control over their disease for a longer period > may take longer to get results. >I’m told that P on the nails is sign that P-arthiritis exists– > There is a higher incidence of psoriatic athritis among people who also have > nail involvement in their skin psoriasis.  However, it isn’t always so; about > 80% of people with psoriasis of the nails will eventually get some form of PA. > Now that is *eventually*.  Might not become evident for years (wasn’t for me) > and I would probably be more conservative on prescribing the heavy hitter drugs > until you get symptoms of active disease.  After all, most of these drugs you > may be on for years, or even decades, so best to minimize the length of time > you do have to take them to when they can do the most good.  Eventually side > effects may require changing or dropping some drugs, so you want to be able to > use them when you really need them. >Enbrel is a brand new treatment for P–as far as I know the only drawback is >its cost (about $1200.00 per month). > Most of the cost is usually covered by health insurance if it is prescribed for > a covered application (psoriatic arthritis). > I don’t think it has yet been approved for psoriasis of the skin (I may be > wrong, but don’t think so).  There is an application pending for this > application (US), but I don’t think it has come through yet.  This would make > getting coverage for psoriasis of the skin alone problematic. > One thing that hasn’t been mentioned yet is NOT to use the nails as "tools". > Any perceived stress to or injury of the nails may cause the psoriasis to flare > up under the nails, which is what is happening when you get nail psoriasis.  So > do try to avoid picking things up with your nails (coins, etc), prying things > with your nails (can flip tops, staples, envelope flaps, etc), peeling things > with your nails (labels, tape, etc), or causing other minor stresses to the > nails. > Also take care ALWAYS to moisturize your nails well, tops and undersides, after > you have been in water.  I always take a long, hot bath in the morning which > helps to get my achy joints moving (great for the arthritis, LOUSY for the > psoriasis).  Afterward I am generous with the Eucerin from the big white tub, > which helps a lot. > If you can, reduce the amount of time you spend soaking in water, use as little > soap as possible, make the water warm rather than hot, and just get IN, get > CLEAN, then get OUT of the bath or shower.  You will find this does help the > nails as well as your skin. > LadyAndy > Chat live with us at >http://tinyurl.com/4ust < (this is at iVillageHealth – my > chats are on Sun evenings at 10 ET) > Joint Replacement Board at > http://boards.ivillagehealth.com/cgi-bin/boards/bhivhjointreplace

Response:

Please ignore this non-sense post!  P cannot be transmitted in any way.  However the ignorance in this posting can be transmitted, by an ignorant person quoting this to another ignorant person. Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Getting p of the nails is very important in trying to control.  That is one > way that it is able to spread thought the body.  For example,  Lets say that > a person gets jock itch and/or athletes feet.  When you scratch it with your > nails, because it hurts so good, you then pass the infection to the nails. > So then once the nails become infected, it then becomes easier to pass the > infection to other parts of the body, lets say by scratching your head and > legs. > Once it has been passed on to the scalp and body.  Then the doctors say you > have psoriasis. > Trying to clear up my nails, has been the hardest to control. > My Doctor gave me a subscription of Lotrimin which I use on my nails.  It is > a drug used for males with jock itch.  Also he said that I could buy over > the counter meds for jock itch and apply to my nails.  Then I just keep the > nails trimmed back and clean the stuff under my nails the best that I can. > The Doctor told me that is the only way.  As the nails grows, I will have to > keep them trimmed, until it has all trimmed away. > Do your best in keeping your nails dry.  Use gloves when doing dishes and > stuff.  And after using the gloves, turn the gloves inside out and lay in by > a window so that the sun can dry the gloves.  Wash your hands, and re-apply > the cream and/or lotion to the nails. > I buy the surgical gloves so that I never re use them. > I hope this helps you. > David > My nails should be back to normal in about two months. > Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some > problems with my toenails in the past. > My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has > anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin > supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something > to stop it before it gets out of hand. > I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

Response:

http://antiagingchoices.com/Aromatherapy/healthy_nail.htm This web site I do not give so that anyone would buy their products, just as a first insight into the problems of nails. Just read the entire page is all I ask.  Because their is some good reading amoung the stuff they what you to buy. David

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Getting p of the nails is very important in trying to control.  That > is one way that it is able to spread thought the body.  For example, > Lets say that a person gets jock itch and/or athletes feet.  When you > scratch it with your nails, because it hurts so good, you then pass > the infection to the nails. So then once the nails become infected, > it then becomes easier to pass the infection to other parts of the > body, lets say by scratching your head and legs. > Once it has been passed on to the scalp and body.  Then the doctors > say you have psoriasis. > Trying to clear up my nails, has been the hardest to control. > My Doctor gave me a subscription of Lotrimin which I use on my nails. > It is a drug used for males with jock itch.  Also he said that I > could buy over the counter meds for jock itch and apply to my nails. > Then I just keep the nails trimmed back and clean the stuff under my > nails the best that I can. The Doctor told me that is the only way. > As the nails grows, I will have to keep them trimmed, until it has > all trimmed away. Do your best in keeping your nails dry.  Use gloves > when doing dishes and stuff.  And after using the gloves, turn the > gloves inside out and lay in by a window so that the sun can dry the > gloves.  Wash your hands, and re-apply the cream and/or lotion to the > nails. I buy the surgical gloves so that I never re use them. > I hope this helps you. > David > WHAT!! > Please corect me people if I am wrong, but I was of the firm understanding > that psoriasis cannot be passed on from one area of the body to another any > more than it can be passed on from one person to another.

Response:

Kim, OK, I summit.  True that psoriasis is itself its own entity.  True that psoriasis is not contagious.  But nail fungus and athletes foot and jock itch is very contagious.  My Doctors believe that those fungus infections "could have" caused my psoriasis but are not certain.  I could rub my psoriasis body all over my wifes, and she would never get psoriasis.  But let me scratch here legs with my fungus infected nails.  Then we wonder if she would catch something.  And then if she did could it turn into psorisises? We don’t know and I am not going to found out. David

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No way isn’t accurate, although it is one of the hardest places to > treat. Um, if that’s literallyu what was said, I would question how > expert your derm is about P and consider finding one who is. > Anyway, because it can be particularly tough, natural may not be a lot > of help. Probably the first thing to try that way – JRStern has > reported here getting good benefit from evening primrose oil there for > one option. And you might try tweaking diet to see if that has any > effect. You could also consider rubbing in any natural topicals that > might have helped you  in the past elsewhere – like tea tree oil. > Careful if you don’t know if that helps you otherwise, as it helps > some but makes mine a lot worse. Also, look into changing the types of > soaps you use and using a nail moisturizer to minimize damage and > eliminate possible irritants triggering things. If you live in the > cold weather, wear gloves – the small amount of nail P I get is almost > always triggered by the cold weather. > Doctors can try to apply some of the normal topicals there, depending > upon where the P is located. They’ll even inject steroids, although > that can reportedly be pretty painful and may not be effective. And > systemmic drugs can clear it up too, although usually nail psoriasis > alone is not considered worth the risk factors. > The new NPF site lets non-members register for free to get access to > their educational pamphlets. There’s one including info about this at > http://www.psoriasis.org/resources/publications/booklets.php > If you’re a member of the NPF you can also look thorugh their It Works > for Me database of tips submitted by other members. > You should also search the ng archives using the tools at > http://www.pinch.com/skin    to see what others have said in the past. > Here’s a general search under psoriasis and nails to get you started > http://pinch.com/skinny?skin=nails+psoriasis > BTW, I’m assuming you know that David meant well in the other reply > but his post was based on an incorrect belief that psoriasis is > contagious. Although it’s not impossible that there is a possibly > contagious fungus of some sort on your nails making things worse, > that’s separate from the psoriasis itself, which is not contagious. > Best > Kim >Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some >problems with my toenails in the past. >My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has >anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin >supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something >to stop it before it gets out of hand. >I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

Response:

>The main purpose of the Enbrel is to deal with my P-arthritis,

Yes, unless your psoriasis is severe, I would reserve Enbrel for those with active psoriatic arthritis. >I >swear that my pain has already begun dimiishing.  (I observe it could be >partly placebo–but if it works, so what).

In the newsgroup alt.support.arthritis , the response is somewhat variable, but some people get results within the first two INJECTIONS!  Amazing.  However, others find the effect takes longer, up to 4 – 6 months for maximum benefit. Probably those who have had no control over their disease for a longer period may take longer to get results. >I’m told that P on the nails is sign that P-arthiritis exists–

There is a higher incidence of psoriatic athritis among people who also have nail involvement in their skin psoriasis.  However, it isn’t always so; about 80% of people with psoriasis of the nails will eventually get some form of PA. Now that is *eventually*.  Might not become evident for years (wasn’t for me) and I would probably be more conservative on prescribing the heavy hitter drugs until you get symptoms of active disease.  After all, most of these drugs you may be on for years, or even decades, so best to minimize the length of time you do have to take them to when they can do the most good.  Eventually side effects may require changing or dropping some drugs, so you want to be able to use them when you really need them. >Enbrel is a brand new treatment for P–as far as I know the only drawback is >its cost (about $1200.00 per month).

Most of the cost is usually covered by health insurance if it is prescribed for a covered application (psoriatic arthritis). I don’t think it has yet been approved for psoriasis of the skin (I may be wrong, but don’t think so).  There is an application pending for this application (US), but I don’t think it has come through yet.  This would make getting coverage for psoriasis of the skin alone problematic. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned yet is NOT to use the nails as "tools". Any perceived stress to or injury of the nails may cause the psoriasis to flare up under the nails, which is what is happening when you get nail psoriasis.  So do try to avoid picking things up with your nails (coins, etc), prying things with your nails (can flip tops, staples, envelope flaps, etc), peeling things with your nails (labels, tape, etc), or causing other minor stresses to the nails. Also take care ALWAYS to moisturize your nails well, tops and undersides, after you have been in water.  I always take a long, hot bath in the morning which helps to get my achy joints moving (great for the arthritis, LOUSY for the psoriasis).  Afterward I am generous with the Eucerin from the big white tub, which helps a lot. If you can, reduce the amount of time you spend soaking in water, use as little soap as possible, make the water warm rather than hot, and just get IN, get CLEAN, then get OUT of the bath or shower.  You will find this does help the nails as well as your skin. LadyAndy Chat live with us at >http://tinyurl.com/4ust < (this is at iVillageHealth – my chats are on Sun evenings at 10 ET) Joint Replacement Board at http://boards.ivillagehealth.com/cgi-bin/boards/bhivhjointreplace

Response:

>Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some >problems with my toenails in the past. >My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has >anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin >supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something >to stop it before it gets out of hand. >I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

I have had *excellent* results on this one aspect of psoriasis — only!  I picked up a recommendation on this group years ago for evening primrose oil (EPO), available at any drug store with a nutritional/herb section.  For me, taking one 500mg capsule per day (maybe two for the first week or so) cleared my nails, which I had had major trouble with for a couple of years.  The stuff must have worked almost immediately, but you don’t know for two or three weeks, when the new, clear nail grows out where you can see it. I’ve posted about this a dozen times or more over the years, you can google it up.  A few others have tried it and reported success. Others have tried it and had no luck.  It will probably be blocked by the use of aspirin, other NSAIDs, or cortisone.   There’s a lot published on both EPO and its (presumed) active ingredient, gamma linolenic acid (GLA).  A little pamphlet from Keats Publishing titled eponymously "Evening Primrose Oil", by Richard A. Passwater, is often available at health food stores.  It barely mentions psoriasis and nothing about nails (that I recall), but shows the metabolic path.  Another book, "Beyond Cortisone" by Martha Moore, also talks about EPO and has a bit more detail.  Somebody actually won a Nobel in medicine circa 1957 for mapping out the metabolism of essential fatty acids into prostaglandins, cytokines, leukotrienes, and such, that’s where this all comes from — that is, they were mapping normal metabolism, not researching psoriasis, so this doesn’t really explain how it helps psoriasis in general or nails in particular, just how it gets in the general area. EPO also helps (me!) with psoriasis overall, makes it a little milder, helps reduce scratch-and-bleed very substantially!  I find I can skip taking the capules for days once my nails are clear, but if I stop for more than two weeks, the nails mess up again.  I went through this cycle three or four times, it’s as real as anything I’ve ever seen. BTW, the EPO at Trader Joe’s market, if you live somewhere they have stores, is cheap and more effective for me than EPO I’ve gotten some other places.  The TJ’s version is straight, the stuff that does NOT work as well for me has vitamin E mixed in. Hope that helps! J.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Getting p of the nails is very important in trying to control.  That > is one way that it is able to spread thought the body.  For example, > Lets say that a person gets jock itch and/or athletes feet.  When you > scratch it with your nails, because it hurts so good, you then pass > the infection to the nails. So then once the nails become infected, > it then becomes easier to pass the infection to other parts of the > body, lets say by scratching your head and legs. > Once it has been passed on to the scalp and body.  Then the doctors > say you have psoriasis. > Trying to clear up my nails, has been the hardest to control. > My Doctor gave me a subscription of Lotrimin which I use on my nails. > It is a drug used for males with jock itch.  Also he said that I > could buy over the counter meds for jock itch and apply to my nails. > Then I just keep the nails trimmed back and clean the stuff under my > nails the best that I can. The Doctor told me that is the only way. > As the nails grows, I will have to keep them trimmed, until it has > all trimmed away. Do your best in keeping your nails dry.  Use gloves > when doing dishes and stuff.  And after using the gloves, turn the > gloves inside out and lay in by a window so that the sun can dry the > gloves.  Wash your hands, and re-apply the cream and/or lotion to the > nails. I buy the surgical gloves so that I never re use them. > I hope this helps you. > David

WHAT!! Please corect me people if I am wrong, but I was of the firm understanding that psoriasis cannot be passed on from one area of the body to another any more than it can be passed on from one person to another.

Response:

Look into Enbrel.  I’m seeing a rheumotologist who just prescribed Enbrel. The main purpose of the Enbrel is to deal with my P-arthritis, which in a period of about 6 months had begun pretty much making me sore all over pretty much all over all of the time. I started Enbrel last Wednesday, and I swear that my pain has already begun dimiishing.  (I observe it could be partly placebo–but if it works, so what). My doctor tells me that within 6 months, he thinks that I will no longer have nail problems (its on 5 nails) either (i.e., they will have grown back clean). P began effecting my nails about 8 months ago, first on my right pointer finger, then on my left big toe, then on my left thumb, then on my middle pointer, etc. I’m told that P on the nails is sign that P-arthiritis exists–ask your derm to send you to a rheumotologists.  P-on the nails is definitely not pleasing to look at, to say the least, and not nearly as easy to cover up as the skin (which I got first). WIth P-arthiritis, however, you not only see it, but you feel it, and it can hurt a lot and really slow you down.  You may want to look into whether you need to–and can–head it off. Enbrel is a brand new treatment for P–as far as I know the only drawback is its cost (about $1200.00 per month). . Good luck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some > problems with my toenails in the past. > My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has > anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin > supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something > to stop it before it gets out of hand. > I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

Response:

No way isn’t accurate, although it is one of the hardest places to treat. Um, if that’s literallyu what was said, I would question how expert your derm is about P and consider finding one who is. Anyway, because it can be particularly tough, natural may not be a lot of help. Probably the first thing to try that way – JRStern has reported here getting good benefit from evening primrose oil there for one option. And you might try tweaking diet to see if that has any effect. You could also consider rubbing in any natural topicals that might have helped you  in the past elsewhere – like tea tree oil. Careful if you don’t know if that helps you otherwise, as it helps some but makes mine a lot worse. Also, look into changing the types of soaps you use and using a nail moisturizer to minimize damage and eliminate possible irritants triggering things. If you live in the cold weather, wear gloves – the small amount of nail P I get is almost always triggered by the cold weather. Doctors can try to apply some of the normal topicals there, depending upon where the P is located. They’ll even inject steroids, although that can reportedly be pretty painful and may not be effective. And systemmic drugs can clear it up too, although usually nail psoriasis alone is not considered worth the risk factors. The new NPF site lets non-members register for free to get access to their educational pamphlets. There’s one including info about this at http://www.psoriasis.org/resources/publications/booklets.php If you’re a member of the NPF you can also look thorugh their It Works for Me database of tips submitted by other members. You should also search the ng archives using the tools at http://www.pinch.com/skin    to see what others have said in the past. Here’s a general search under psoriasis and nails to get you started http://pinch.com/skinny?skin=nails+psoriasis BTW, I’m assuming you know that David meant well in the other reply but his post was based on an incorrect belief that psoriasis is contagious. Although it’s not impossible that there is a possibly contagious fungus of some sort on your nails making things worse, that’s separate from the psoriasis itself, which is not contagious. Best Kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some >problems with my toenails in the past. >My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has >anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin >supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something >to stop it before it gets out of hand. >I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

Response:

> Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some > problems with my toenails in the past. > My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has > anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin > supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something > to stop it before it gets out of hand. > I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

My nails were the last thing to clear when I was doing PUVA and was close to 90% clear… I just keep mine short since their a little brittle….creams and oinments didn’t really seem to help mine…

Response:

Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some problems with my toenails in the past. My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something to stop it before it gets out of hand. I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

Response:

Getting p of the nails is very important in trying to control.  That is one way that it is able to spread thought the body.  For example,  Lets say that a person gets jock itch and/or athletes feet.  When you scratch it with your nails, because it hurts so good, you then pass the infection to the nails. So then once the nails become infected, it then becomes easier to pass the infection to other parts of the body, lets say by scratching your head and legs. Once it has been passed on to the scalp and body.  Then the doctors say you have psoriasis. Trying to clear up my nails, has been the hardest to control. My Doctor gave me a subscription of Lotrimin which I use on my nails.  It is a drug used for males with jock itch.  Also he said that I could buy over the counter meds for jock itch and apply to my nails.  Then I just keep the nails trimmed back and clean the stuff under my nails the best that I can. The Doctor told me that is the only way.  As the nails grows, I will have to keep them trimmed, until it has all trimmed away. Do your best in keeping your nails dry.  Use gloves when doing dishes and stuff.  And after using the gloves, turn the gloves inside out and lay in by a window so that the sun can dry the gloves.  Wash your hands, and re-apply the cream and/or lotion to the nails. I buy the surgical gloves so that I never re use them. I hope this helps you. David My nails should be back to normal in about two months.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Recently, psoriasis has been affecting my fingernails–I have had some > problems with my toenails in the past. > My derm says that there is no way to treat psoriasis of the nail–has > anyone here had ANY luck with any treatments of their own? Any vitamin > supplements natural product suggestions? I would like to do something > to stop it before it gets out of hand. > I repeat, ANY suggestions would be appreciated.

Response:

Question:

If anyone ever hears that Dovonex is being discontinued, please post it here. That would be extremely bad news for me! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any chance your pharmacist is confusing it with Dritho – as in drithos > scalp, cream, etc. Those use anthralin and yeah, there have been > issues with availability of that and talk of no longer manufactuing > it. > Another possible problem relates to who they’re ordering from . It > used to be straightforward Bristol Squibb, but for a while now Leo > Pharamceuticals has been the listed actual manufacturer. They’re > either a subsidiary or a business partner. > Finally, even if it were true, there are new Vitamin D analogies in > development, with some listed at the npf pipeline > http://www.psoriasis.org/research/pipeline/chart.php > Kim >Has anyone had any problem finding Dovenex?  I have used Dovenex for many >years, and the last time I had my prescription filled, the pharmacist said >that she had a hard time getting it.  She said that her wholesaler told her >that it was going to be discontinued.  Has anyone else heard about this?

Response:

>Finally, even if it were true, there are new Vitamin D analogies in >development, with some listed at the npf pipeline

To be expected, if Dovonex patent is running out. >http://www.psoriasis.org/research/pipeline/chart.php

Yikes, needs updating!  Humira is approved, not Phase 1!  And Tazorac was approved what, five years ago?!??! J.

Response:

Any chance your pharmacist is confusing it with Dritho – as in drithos scalp, cream, etc. Those use anthralin and yeah, there have been issues with availability of that and talk of no longer manufactuing it. Another possible problem relates to who they’re ordering from . It used to be straightforward Bristol Squibb, but for a while now Leo Pharamceuticals has been the listed actual manufacturer. They’re either a subsidiary or a business partner. Finally, even if it were true, there are new Vitamin D analogies in development, with some listed at the npf pipeline http://www.psoriasis.org/research/pipeline/chart.php Kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Has anyone had any problem finding Dovenex?  I have used Dovenex for many >years, and the last time I had my prescription filled, the pharmacist said >that she had a hard time getting it.  She said that her wholesaler told her >that it was going to be discontinued.  Has anyone else heard about this?

Response:

Rebecca, I use Dovonex daily & I have never had a problem getting it from my pharmacy. Also, I have not heard that it may be discontinued–I would be very upset if it was discontinued as it is the only topical that has ever consistently gotten rid of my psoriasis. I will ask my pharmacist next visit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Has anyone had any problem finding Dovenex?  I have used Dovenex for many > years, and the last time I had my prescription filled, the pharmacist said > that she had a hard time getting it.  She said that her wholesaler told her > that it was going to be discontinued.  Has anyone else heard about this?

Response:

Has anyone had any problem finding Dovenex?  I have used Dovenex for many years, and the last time I had my prescription filled, the pharmacist said that she had a hard time getting it.  She said that her wholesaler told her that it was going to be discontinued.  Has anyone else heard about this?

Response:

I haven’t heard of any availability problems, other than a long lead times (they don’t like to keep it on the shelves because of expiration at its high cost). I just had my prescription filled at Wal-Mart with no problems. A quick search on the net shows a number of suppliers.  The search also turned up an indication that the patent expires in December 2007.  I look forward go generics. Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone had any problem finding Dovenex?  I have used Dovenex for many > years, and the last time I had my prescription filled, the pharmacist said > that she had a hard time getting it.  She said that her wholesaler told her > that it was going to be discontinued.  Has anyone else heard about this?

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all. > For some 10 years now (I’m 29), I’ve had a sore and flaky scalp, with some > guest appearances in the face (sides of the nose, eyebrows, spots on my > chin), chest and some spots in the "great down under". :-/ > I was initially diagnosed with seborrheic dermatitis, and prescribed a > Diprosalic treatment, which kind of worked, but after each application, > the rash always came back, seemingly a bit stronger than before. > Today, however, my (new) doctor said that it was probably (and > unfortunately) psoriasis, and prescribed me some Diprosalic and Daivonex > (Dovonex in the US?). > I know the symptoms are fairly similar, so I was wondering if there is > any bulletproof way to determine what exactly it is that ails me. And more > importantly, is it vital for a treatment to be successful to know?

A biopsy can be done to determine for sure what it is.  But I don’t know that it’s necessary unless perhaps whatever it is does not respond to treatment.  I have both P and Seb Derm, and am using the same treatment (topical steroids) for both…with the exception of now using something stronger on the P.  The Seb Derm is in my ears, and I don’t think it would be wise to use anything very strong in there. There is no cure for either condition.  Both will come back.  You just have to keep applying the cream.  I have a friend who gets Seb Derm on his face. He said it comes back about every three weeks.  He usually only has to apply the cream once and it takes care of it for a while. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/ Julie Bove, posting from new account

Response:

Hi all. For some 10 years now (I’m 29), I’ve had a sore and flaky scalp, with some guest appearances in the face (sides of the nose, eyebrows, spots on my chin), chest and some spots in the "great down under". :-/ I was initially diagnosed with seborrheic dermatitis, and prescribed a Diprosalic treatment, which kind of worked, but after each application, the rash always came back, seemingly a bit stronger than before. Today, however, my (new) doctor said that it was probably (and unfortunately) psoriasis, and prescribed me some Diprosalic and Daivonex (Dovonex in the US?). I know the symptoms are fairly similar, so I was wondering if there is any bulletproof way to determine what exactly it is that ails me. And more importantly, is it vital for a treatment to be successful to know? Vidar

Response:

>I know the symptoms are fairly similar, so I was wondering if there is >any bulletproof way to determine what exactly it is that ails me. And more >importantly, is it vital for a treatment to be successful to know?

Apparently not, to both. If the treatment regimen for either one works better, maybe that proves out the diagnosis! J.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi all. > For some 10 years now (I’m 29), I’ve had a sore and flaky scalp, with some > guest appearances in the face (sides of the nose, eyebrows, spots on my > chin), chest and some spots in the "great down under". :-/ > I was initially diagnosed with seborrheic dermatitis, and prescribed a > Diprosalic treatment, which kind of worked, but after each application, > the rash always came back, seemingly a bit stronger than before. > Today, however, my (new) doctor said that it was probably (and > unfortunately) psoriasis, and prescribed me some Diprosalic and Daivonex > (Dovonex in the US?). > I know the symptoms are fairly similar, so I was wondering if there is > any bulletproof way to determine what exactly it is that ails me. And more > importantly, is it vital for a treatment to be successful to know? > Vidar

It sounds as if it is time for you to see a dermatologist. He/She can tell you for sure. — Chuck "If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain it. It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time." Abraham Lincoln

Response:

Question:

Perhaps you could feed your baby both baby formula and breast milk.  You can use a breast pump to get whatever breast milk that you can provide, and do so in a more comfortable time frame. Then you can use this milk to supplement the formula feedings. I am told that a mother’s breast milk provides many more things for the baby than just calories, i.e., antigens, and other things to help make a baby healthy. Good luck, Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I want to thank all of you for giving me a response. It’s really > helpfull. Unfortunately I think I have to stop breastfeeding. My baby > is not growing enough. My doctor thinks it might be because of P. The > fact that it hurts gives me stress while feeding so the milk becomes > less. I will try a bit longer with moisturizer and different > positions during feeding but I’m afraid that P. makes it impossible > to feed her the way I want. I don’t have a special lamp and it’s the > midst of winter so there’s no sunlight. He indeed doesn’t want me to > use Daivonex cream, and has no further options for me. > Anyway, thank you all for your tips. You’re great. > This really is a great newsgroup.

Response:

> Maybe someone has experience with breastfeeding and P?

Yup, about a year ago. As a result of our posts to this and other groups, we found we were not alone (others had gone through it), but there were also not many answers. Some had to give up breast feeding – it is *very* painful. My wife managed to persist, but it was really hard at times. The P. eventually reduced at 3-4 mths, but there is still a bit there. A Lanoline cream (eg Lansinoh) was the best answer. Very expensive (in New Zealand at least), but it is safe with baby. Expressing may help. Sunlight/UVB may help, as may sea water. Try crossposting to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psoriasis_support/ too. — Dave

Response:

>Hallo! >Always be very careful with your medication while breastfeeding, creams >usually are cortisone steroid based.

Often, but I don’t think I’d say usually. Especially as she said that she’s using Dovonex/Daivonex, which is not a corticosteroid. That being said, it’s still probably not a good idea to use it or any other topical while breast feeding both because of the usual issues with the baby picking up the topical from the skin surface while feeding, but also because of possible problems from what gets absorbed in your system. With daivonex, that concern involves getting too much calcium in your system if you go over a certain weekly dose and I would think the baby might be even more sensitive to the effects. Iris – everything I’ve seen says to talk with your doctor about using dovonex/daivonex when breast feeding. They don’t say you can’t use it, but I think there’s concern because they really don’t known enough about how safe it is. It’s probably better to avoid all topical or systemic medicines and switch to a combination of safe moisturizers and UV light treatments while breast feeding if that’s an option and one that would be effective for you. This has been talked about here before, so let me give you a link to prior discussion in case you find any helpful ideas there from others who’ve been through the same thing: http://pinch.com/skinny?skin=psoriasis+AND+%28breastfeed+OR+%22breast… Kim The Psoriasis Newsgroup Resource FAQ can be found at               http://www.psoriasisfaq.com but will also be coming soon (twice a month) to a            newsgroup near you…

Response:

> Then in january 2002 I got pregnant and it all went away. (I’m not suggesting > pregancy is the answer)

I have heard that a woman’s immune system is turned down during pregnancy.  Why?  Because there is a foreign organism growing inside her that should not be attacked by the immune system.  The baby is half the father’s genes.

Response:

>> Then in january 2002 I got pregnant and it all went away. (I’m not > suggesting pregancy is the answer) >I have heard that a woman’s immune system is turned down during >pregnancy.  Why?  Because there is a foreign organism growing inside >her that should not be attacked by the immune system.  The baby is >half the father’s genes.

May be true for many women out there, but not all.  Some largish percentage of psoriatics who get pregnant actually have their psoriasis get worse, instead of better.  And some more experience no change whatsoever.  I forget the exact numbers. – Dave W. http://psorsite.com/

Response:

I want to thank all of you for giving me a response. It’s really helpfull. Unfortunately I think I have to stop breastfeeding. My baby is not growing enough. My doctor thinks it might be because of P. The fact that it hurts gives me stress while feeding so the milk becomes less. I will try a bit longer with moisturizer and different positions during feeding but I’m afraid that P. makes it impossible to feed her the way I want. I don’t have a special lamp and it’s the midst of winter so there’s no sunlight. He indeed doesn’t want me to use Daivonex cream, and has no further options for me. Anyway, thank you all for your tips. You’re great. This really is a great newsgroup.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hallo! > Always be very careful with your medication while breastfeeding, creams > usually are cortisone steroid based. > It is indeed very confusing at times to understand all the drug names in > Enlish. > I have P. for 20 years (I’m 29) and I had all sorts of creams. The tough > part of P. is it sometimes need radical medication to get rid of it. In your > case you can only use mild medication because of your little one. When > you’re done breastfeeding go back to your dermatologist and ask for some > good research on your P. and get some bloodwork done. Sometimes P. appears > because you had a yeast infection, > (schimmel infectie) but there could be many triggers. For me it was a skin > discoloration in my neck that was scrubbed clean, or they tried to anyway, > and that started to irritate. If you have any trouble understanding some of > the names used give me a yell, and if I understand it myself I’ll explain it > to you. If there is something that even I do not understand the people here > are nice enough to try and give you their explantion. > Groetjes, > Misty. > Hai, > I’m Iris from Holland. I’m very confused when I read all the messages > here. > It’s difficult to understand the names of the drugs in english. I hope you > understand what I’m talking about. > My grandfather and mother both suffered from severe psoriasis. I got in > november 2001, it started with little spots all over my body. Then in > january 2002 I got pregnant and it all went away. (I’m not suggesting > pregancy is the answer) In october I delivered and just 3 weeks later it > returned. Unfortunately on my breasts. I’m still breastfeeding so I’m not > sure if I can use the drug I have. It’s called Daivonex creme. That’s the > dutch name. It contains calcipotriol, dinatriumedetate, dinatriumfosfate > dihydrate, liquid parafine, glycerol, cetomacrogol 1000, ceylstearyl > alcohol, chloorallylhexaminium-chloride and water. I hope someone > recognizes > this and can help me. Cause from spots I went to big (??what’s this in > english??) "places". > Maybe someone has experience with breastfeeding and P? > Thanx  Iris

Response:

Hai, I’m Iris from Holland. I’m very confused when I read all the messages here. It’s difficult to understand the names of the drugs in english. I hope you understand what I’m talking about. My grandfather and mother both suffered from severe psoriasis. I got in november 2001, it started with little spots all over my body. Then in january 2002 I got pregnant and it all went away. (I’m not suggesting pregancy is the answer) In october I delivered and just 3 weeks later it returned. Unfortunately on my breasts. I’m still breastfeeding so I’m not sure if I can use the drug I have. It’s called Daivonex creme. That’s the dutch name. It contains calcipotriol, dinatriumedetate, dinatriumfosfate dihydrate, liquid parafine, glycerol, cetomacrogol 1000, ceylstearyl alcohol, chloorallylhexaminium-chloride and water. I hope someone recognizes this and can help me. Cause from spots I went to big (??what’s this in english??) "places". Maybe someone has experience with breastfeeding and P? Thanx  Iris

Response:

Hallo! Always be very careful with your medication while breastfeeding, creams usually are cortisone steroid based. It is indeed very confusing at times to understand all the drug names in Enlish. I have P. for 20 years (I’m 29) and I had all sorts of creams. The tough part of P. is it sometimes need radical medication to get rid of it. In your case you can only use mild medication because of your little one. When you’re done breastfeeding go back to your dermatologist and ask for some good research on your P. and get some bloodwork done. Sometimes P. appears because you had a yeast infection, (schimmel infectie) but there could be many triggers. For me it was a skin discoloration in my neck that was scrubbed clean, or they tried to anyway, and that started to irritate. If you have any trouble understanding some of the names used give me a yell, and if I understand it myself I’ll explain it to you. If there is something that even I do not understand the people here are nice enough to try and give you their explantion. Groetjes, Misty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hai, > I’m Iris from Holland. I’m very confused when I read all the messages here. > It’s difficult to understand the names of the drugs in english. I hope you > understand what I’m talking about. > My grandfather and mother both suffered from severe psoriasis. I got in > november 2001, it started with little spots all over my body. Then in > january 2002 I got pregnant and it all went away. (I’m not suggesting > pregancy is the answer) In october I delivered and just 3 weeks later it > returned. Unfortunately on my breasts. I’m still breastfeeding so I’m not > sure if I can use the drug I have. It’s called Daivonex creme. That’s the > dutch name. It contains calcipotriol, dinatriumedetate, dinatriumfosfate > dihydrate, liquid parafine, glycerol, cetomacrogol 1000, ceylstearyl > alcohol, chloorallylhexaminium-chloride and water. I hope someone recognizes > this and can help me. Cause from spots I went to big (??what’s this in > english??) "places". > Maybe someone has experience with breastfeeding and P? > Thanx  Iris

Response:

Question:

I found this news group over a year ago.  Every day I would come in and read the posts, but I never used to respond.  One day I read a post that tugged at my heart.  It was from a guy that had P and was venting his frustration.  I decided to respond… nothing to exciting, just that I understood exactly what he meant and that if he wanted to talk, I would listen.  He wrote back. I wrote back…and so on and so on…..  It’s been over a year, and i can honestly say, that I have never met anyone with as much fire, passion, sweetness and love. I would have never drempt that responding to a post would be so life changing. You never know…… there is someone, perhaps here in this news group, that would love to give you that hug, and lather you up with lotion, and tell you to stop scratching when you dont even realize that you are, Somone that will  kiss every patch you have, without blinking an eye.  Love is a mysterious thing, it may just be hiding in the next post that you and put up wet (lol sorry!!!), you never know, you just might find someone in here that will be more than willing to help….. I say keep posting, and good Hope

Response:

> bloody hell, I think I could get a trip to the States if this thread > continues!!!

just make sure your passport is up todate..lol > Thanks for the giggles fellas. Much appreciated from a women with > psoriasis all over, yes, even those bits!

your welcome for the giggles – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here is my unsolicited advice and ramblings. > Don’t forget that women don’t think like men do. That is what always > trips me up. My bloke mates remind me all the time that my body is not > what and who I am. I am female and 50% covered in psoriasis on a good > day. Most of the time much more. > Guys, women are much more understanding than you give us credit for. I > know you haven’t met her yet, but she is there. She is shy and wants to > touch you, but is unsure how to go about it. > There is someone there who will touch you with love. Someone who will > rub cream into  your aching skin. Who will put the hot water bottle > against your sore joints. Someone who will laugh at the amount of > vaccuuming that has to be done. > Someone who will love the bands you are into, the job you do, the footy > team you support. > The tyranny of psoriasis can be overcome. You are not your skin.

I think all I really need is to get the insurence, get to the docotor, and a hug(well not from the doctor…that’s the "cure" treatment that will give me the confidence to ask for the hug..)

Response:

lol shame shame shame…..

Response:

> lol shame shame shame…..

Is this an offer?? lol

Response:

bloody hell, I think I could get a trip to the States if this thread continues!!! Thanks for the giggles fellas. Much appreciated from a women with psoriasis all over, yes, even those bits! Here is my unsolicited advice and ramblings. Don’t forget that women don’t think like men do. That is what always trips me up. My bloke mates remind me all the time that my body is not what and who I am. I am female and 50% covered in psoriasis on a good day. Most of the time much more. Guys, women are much more understanding than you give us credit for. I know you haven’t met her yet, but she is there. She is shy and wants to touch you, but is unsure how to go about it. There is someone there who will touch you with love. Someone who will rub cream into  your aching skin. Who will put the hot water bottle against your sore joints. Someone who will laugh at the amount of vaccuuming that has to be done. Someone who will love the bands you are into, the job you do, the footy team you support. The tyranny of psoriasis can be overcome. You are not your skin. El. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> lol shame shame shame….. > Is this an offer?? > lol

Response:

man or women……just don’t care anymore

Response:

> man or women……just don’t care anymore

Darn too bad your not a woman.. Your more desperate than me it sounds

Response:

How about anyone in philly?  (women please)

Response:

> How about anyone in philly?  (women please)

We’ve started another one of those treads! I’ll go ahead and say I don’t care where you are.. I’ll fly you here…  LOL

Response:

Question:

>And compel >them to do more research for a more satisfying solution to the >disease.

Making demands of a derm who sees patients will rarely get beyond the derm. Most of them are not involved in research. – Dave W. http://psorsite.com/

Response:

>> >First, steroids do not tackle the root of the > >problem it only suppress symptoms, and while the immune system may be > >locally suppressed the human body through the HPA axis upregulates the > >immune system systemically which results in worse disease in other > >parts of the body. > If you know about the HPA axis stuff, you should know the fairly-strict > definition of "rebound" that Kim is referring to. >Just because I know about the HPA axis I should be able to read minds >as well? >I am waiting for Kim to define her definition of rebound.  

Sorry I didn’t jump to heel fast enough. Guess I didn’t read minds fast enough either, as I only just checked back to see your call. It’s not my personal definition. although it is laid out pretty fully in the FAQ, which I did draft, had you looked (honestly, that’s a good idea with any newsgroup). While Psorsite provides a more technical explanation involving the HPA axis stuff, which is why Dave made the above comment http://psorsite.com/docs/stereffects.html My layman’s version is that a psoriasis rebound is when the treatment itself, once you stop using it or it becomes ineffective, causes the psoriais to abruptly worsen and spread beyond where it was prior to using the med. This is different from a regular flare occuring because the psoriasis isn’t being sufficiently controlled or is being otherwise triggered when you stop using a given treatment, which is the reality behind most of what people mistakenly call rebounds. Flares are a general part of the facts of psoriatic life for most people.  Rebounds are a very specific subset of them. Kim The Psoriasis Newsgroup Resource FAQ can be found at               http://www.psoriasisfaq.com but will also be coming soon (twice a month) to a            newsgroup near you…

Response:

>If you are indeed an exception than great for you.  Do you mean that >you can use steroids whenever you want and your psoriasis just gets >better with each use and now you are psoriasis free?

No, not at all.  I used some steroids back in the early days of my psoriasis, the psoriasis went away a bunch, and when I stopped using the steroids it came back some – but not to its original levels.  Fast forward two _years_, and I got some new patches on completely different limbs. >Maybe you can >share with others your personal experience with steroids, i.e. the >kinds of steroids you used and frequency and duration of use.  Maybe >the vast numbers of people who have problems with steroids have been >using it wrong and can learn something from you.

Please provide evidence supporting your assertion that there are "vast numbers" of people who have problems with steroids.  I can’t answer the implied question when the premise assumes facts not in evidence. >Would be interested to know your personal experience with psoriasis, >age of onset, type, triggers, response, treatment.

Age: 27 (now 36) Type: vulgaris Triggers: beats the heck out of me. Response: what do you mean, response? Treatment: Steroids, early on, coal tar keeps it in check enough for me now. >Exactly, steroids work by suppressing the immune system. However, >there is a distinction that must be made:  Immune suppression on a >systemic level, i.e. HPA axis; but also on a local level where the HPA >axis is not involved.  You assume that only large doses of strong >steroids suppress the immune system.

No, I assume that large doses of strong steroids (or lower dosages for long times) suppresses the HPA axis, which does not equal the immune system.  In fact, when the HPA axis is suppressed, the immune system can run rampant if there’s nothing else going on (like big doses of topical or oral steroids). >Small amounts of nonpotent >steroids used for brief periods of time usually have no effect on the >HPA axis.

Right. >However, because they work as you yourself know, they must >have suppressed the immune system at a local level and it’s this >effect that is worrisome and causes psoriasis to return worse than >before regardless of rebound.  Again, this is local upregulation of >cytokine production from T-cells and does not involve the HPA axis.

There you go again, using absolutes.  Provide evidence that cytokine production is higher after low-dose steroid usage than it was before. >"A few people"  hmmm, I wonder what "evidence" you have to support >your claim that only a few people have bad experience with steroids

You somehow think that every one of the millions of psoriatics in the world read this newsgroup?  The experiences related here are from a very small minority of the people with this disease. >Conversely, what evidence do you have for saying that "millions of >psoriatics" don’t get worse with steroid use.  If you have evidence, >please share it with me.

Actually, I’d much rather you support your claim first.  Your assertion, that is, that anyone who uses steroids for psoriasis "invariably" gets a worse case of psoriasis afterwards.  This is a statement which I’ve never encountered before, while I can say that I’ve read, from the NPF, about how the vast majority of psoriatics have only mild cases of the disease.  You are claiming that all of those people will, indeed, get worse psoriasis after the steroids they tend to use do their nasty work. >I don’t think I have to provide any evidence.

Yes, you do.  You made the claim, now back it up with data or appropriate citations… >Just think back on how your psoriasis first developed and spread.

…and not anecdotal evidence.  Because you’ll be surprised by me, again. Those extra spots that popped up two years after my steroid use?  They’re in places where it’s hard to get topicals to stay put, and so I haven’t been treating them, except for the occassional soak (twice a year, maybe).  But guess what?  They’re going away, anyway. >If psoriasis were a >self-limited disease, you probably wouldn’t have to use any steroids >and you wouldn’t be in a newsgroup trying to find solutions and argue >with me.

You’re making a ton of assumptions.  How much coverage do you think I have? And why didn’t you ask for that piece of data above? >You have yet to provide any convincing arguments or evidence to >counter what I have said in the first post.

I thought it was pretty clear that you provided your own best argument against using absolute terms the way you do.  You spoke of the massive variability of psoriasis.  Claiming that steroids _always_ make the disease worse at some later time disagrees with what you said, and also isn’t discussed in any of the medical literature.  You’re the one who’s making the big positive claims here, you need to back them up. >Which part of my post was >pseudo-medical nonsense, please be more specific.

Any place you used a term which signified certainty about these claims of yours which haven’t, apparently, been tested. >Experiential-I suggest that you look up the word experiential in a >dictionary and then reply.

I apologize.  I mis-read your word.  No need to get dictionary-snippy. >Again, I don’t think many people who are psoriasis sufferers would >agree with you.

Well, that’s one of the problems with your average person, now isn’t it? That’s why testimonials work so well in advertising.  They are not evidence, but billions of people think they are.  Facts, however, aren’t found by popularity contests, and some facts are downright unpopular.  It saddens me that millions of psoriasis sufferers (and billions of others) believe that testimonials are good evidence for medical claims, and I do my best to spread the "testimonials are not evidence" word. – Dave W. http://psorsite.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Also, what is your definition of a rebound and how do you distinguish >it from a worsening especially when the disease has been stable over >time and worsened after steriod use? > Steve, I haven’t had the (awful) experience myself, but from all > accounts the "rebound" effect is completely obvious, if someone with > psoriasis goes cold-turkey after getting some relief from steroids. > It gets a lot worse, really fast. >  Also, there are lots of things >which may cause disease progression and steriod use is one of them, >regardless of duration and dosage of use. > That just isn’t clear.  It may well be true, but as you said further > along in your message, there’s a lot of variability in psoriasis, so > it may be a lot more true for some people than for others.  For people > with mild psoriasis, using modest amounts of steroids, there are > apparently a lot of people who manage to use them and get some relief > without major problems.

Steroids as a class of drugs is a double edged sword.  It provides relief but at the real risk of making the disease worse.  As many psoriasis sufferers know, the state of medical care for psoriasis is woefully inadequate.  Granted, medical knowledge has come a long way from the times of blood-letting and leeching(there are actually some indications for leeches).  It still has a long way to go.  I imagine that physicians who will be trained 20 years from now will laugh at our "state of the art medicine".  I urge people to be more sceptical of their M.D. and ask more questions.  I think they will find that the derms just can’t answer many of the basic questions they have. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I gather you’re not one of them, and neither am I.  In fact, I know > that I am, and perhaps you are, one of those from the other side, for > whom steroids quickly cause more problems than they fix.  I am > completely with you on the anger and disgust at the first > dermatologist I went to who prescribed the stuff, and should have seen > quickly that it wasn’t doing much good and was in fact probably > causing things to worsen.  However, I’m even angrier at the medical > profession as a whole, that has apparently not recognized that there > are people like me (and others who pop up on this newsgroup from time > to time) for whom even modest amounts of common steroid topicals are > downright hazardous. > That said, once I realized this, I found that with careful and > occassional use, I can get some temporary relief from steroids without > any apparent longer-term effects.  I seldom bother, frankly, as it > interferes with other treatments.  Only so much skin, so much time.   > Also, Kim knows all this stuff, too, and her post was reasonable and > informative and I endorse it entirely, fwiw.  If you want to rant at > some of us who’ve been here for a while, you can at least be sure > you’re preaching to the converted on pretty much all the facts that > you cite, and where you wander into some overstatements, as we all may > do when we get up a good head of steam, well, that usually gets > something of a sympathetic reading, plus or minus a little discussion > for any newbies who happen to wander in.

The statement that "steroids make psoriasis worse" can seem plain wrong at first glance.  However, as you know from experience, it is more true than not. All I am trying to convey across is that psoriasis sufferers need to demand from their derms alternatives, even if there are none.  By demanding for medicines that actually help rather than harm the disease you are simply exercising your right as a patient.  And compel them to do more research for a more satisfying solution to the disease. Or you can simply let the derms know that the frontline drug they offer will work in the short term but eventually will make things worse. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On the Elidel (pimecrolimus) cream, I haven’t tried it (probably > should), but, well, as Kim said, there are some vague reports of at > least quick worsening after Raptiva (nee Xanelim) usage, but certainly > not from Amevive, another biologic, with Enbrel sort of in-between > (and Remicade seems to have reports of longer-lasting relief).  So, > for the biologics overall, it seems the likelihood of actual rebound, > where things quickly get worse than before, is rather small.  At > least, I don’t recall any reports of it on this newsgroup. > On the positive side, there have been several reports on this group of > people using Elidel on psoriasis and getting good response, where the > psoriasis is on thin skin or is otherwise thin and accessible to > topicals.  I’ve seen no reports of it working on thick plaque > psoriasis.  However, I did see one report of trials of elidel as some > kind of systemic treatment, but never saw any trial results. > J.

Response:

Novartis says no rebound (for eczema anyway) http://www.elidel.com/hcp/mechanism.jsp J.

Response:

>    I used elidel for gential inverse P, and it worked initially fairly well >for about a week or so, now I don’t use it, it burns more than protopic, and >doesn’t work at all it seems anymore.. I do use Protopic with quite a bit of >success now, i use the .03% instead of 10% to minimize stinging etc..  I >much prefer the action and application of the Protopic over the Elidel for >The inverse on the Genitals, for those who need to know.

Appreciate the info from someone who’s tried both! Also, Protopic has a more informative and amusing web site, great slide shows and animations (scratch, scratch): http://www.protopic.com/professional/science/moa.php?page=science&sub… J.

Response:

> >Again, I must say that I believe any use of a steroid results in worse >disease than before starting steroids. > If testimonials are accepted as evidence, as you appear to indicate, then I am > the exception to that belief.

If you are indeed an exception than great for you.  Do you mean that you can use steroids whenever you want and your psoriasis just gets better with each use and now you are psoriasis free?  Maybe you can share with others your personal experience with steroids, i.e. the kinds of steroids you used and frequency and duration of use.  Maybe the vast numbers of people who have problems with steroids have been using it wrong and can learn something from you. >It’s just a matter of degree of how much worse. > "Negatively worse" is the answer in my case.

Would be interested to know your personal experience with psoriasis, age of onset, type, triggers, response, treatment. >First, steroids do not tackle the root of the >problem it only suppress symptoms, and while the immune system may be >locally suppressed the human body through the HPA axis upregulates the >immune system systemically which results in worse disease in other >parts of the body. > If you know about the HPA axis stuff, you should know the fairly-strict > definition of "rebound" that Kim is referring to.

Just because I know about the HPA axis I should be able to read minds as well? I am waiting for Kim to define her definition of rebound.   > On the other hand, when a person uses lots of steroids, the HPA axis actually > _down_ regulates the body’s own production of steroids.  Stop applying the > steroids, and the body has a massive debt of them, since it takes several days > for the HPA axis to ramp production of them back up.  During that time, > inflammation can run rampant, and _pow_, a rebound!

Exactly, steroids work by suppressing the immune system. However, there is a distinction that must be made:  Immune suppression on a systemic level, i.e. HPA axis; but also on a local level where the HPA axis is not involved.  You assume that only large doses of strong steroids suppress the immune system.  Small amounts of nonpotent steroids used for brief periods of time usually have no effect on the HPA axis.  However, because they work as you yourself know, they must have suppressed the immune system at a local level and it’s this effect that is worrisome and causes psoriasis to return worse than before regardless of rebound.  Again, this is local upregulation of cytokine production from T-cells and does not involve the HPA axis. >Even if the steroid is tapered slowly and symptoms >seem stable or even improved, the next time psoriasis is triggered >through whatever mechanism it is invariably worse than if no steroids >were used.  The experience of yourself and many others in this group >is ample evidence of my supposition. > A few peoples’ experiences from a newsgroup is no evidence at all.  There are

"A few people"  hmmm, I wonder what "evidence" you have to support your claim that only a few people have bad experience with steroids > millions of psoriatics who use steroids who do _not_ "invariably" get worse > psoriasis symptoms.

Conversely, what evidence do you have for saying that "millions of psoriatics" don’t get worse with steroid use.  If you have evidence, please share it with me. >Steroids only acclerates what >time does to psoriasis-makes it worse faster even if it may offer some >temporary relief. > You’ve got funny ideas about psoriasis.  Where is there evidence that psoriasis > gets worse over time, even if untreated?

I don’t think I have to provide any evidence.  Just think back on how your psoriasis first developed and spread.  If psoriasis were a self-limited disease, you probably wouldn’t have to use any steroids and you wouldn’t be in a newsgroup trying to find solutions and argue with me. >Yes, long term use will certainly result in more noticeable harm but >short term use will also result in rebound albeit they may not be >recognized immediately.  No, these are not potential risks, they are >real but may not be as noticeable. > Your use of absolutes turns what you write into pseudo-medical nonsense, as you

You have yet to provide any convincing arguments or evidence to counter what I have said in the first post.  Which part of my post was pseudo-medical nonsense, please be more specific. > probably know since you also wrote, "The variability of psoriasis is > tremendous, from genetics to disease severity, from disease triggers to > response to treatment." >However, my >belief that steroids will cause disease progression is combined a >priori and experiential. > What?  How can your belief be based on experiments when you go on to _propose_ > an experiment which hasn’t yet been done to test your belief?

Experiential-I suggest that you look up the word experiential in a dictionary and then reply. >The experience of many psoriasis sufferers as posted on this group >will testify to my claim. > Testimonials are worthless as evidence for your claim.

Again, I don’t think many people who are psoriasis sufferers would agree with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> – Dave W. > http://psorsite.com/

Response:

> First, have you used Elidel yourself? if not, how do you know that > there is no rebound? I have done some search on this topic and it > seems that Elidel does not improve psoriasis dramatically and of those > who addressed the use of Elidel they did not mention any rebound but I > would like to hear from people who have experience using Elidel. > Also, what is your definition of a rebound and how do you distinguish > it from a worsening especially when the disease has been stable over > time and worsened after steriod use?   Also, there are lots of things > which may cause disease progression and steriod use is one of them, > regardless of duration and dosage of use.

    I used elidel for gential inverse P, and it worked initially fairly well for about a week or so, now I don’t use it, it burns more than protopic, and doesn’t work at all it seems anymore.. I do use Protopic with quite a bit of success now, i use the .03% instead of 10% to minimize stinging etc..  I much prefer the action and application of the Protopic over the Elidel for The inverse on the Genitals, for those who need to know. Dan

Response:

>Again, I must say that I believe any use of a steroid results in worse >disease than before starting steroids.

If testimonials are accepted as evidence, as you appear to indicate, then I am the exception to that belief. >It’s just a matter of degree of how much worse.

"Negatively worse" is the answer in my case. >First, steroids do not tackle the root of the >problem it only suppress symptoms, and while the immune system may be >locally suppressed the human body through the HPA axis upregulates the >immune system systemically which results in worse disease in other >parts of the body.

If you know about the HPA axis stuff, you should know the fairly-strict definition of "rebound" that Kim is referring to. On the other hand, when a person uses lots of steroids, the HPA axis actually _down_ regulates the body’s own production of steroids.  Stop applying the steroids, and the body has a massive debt of them, since it takes several days for the HPA axis to ramp production of them back up.  During that time, inflammation can run rampant, and _pow_, a rebound! >Even if the steroid is tapered slowly and symptoms >seem stable or even improved, the next time psoriasis is triggered >through whatever mechanism it is invariably worse than if no steroids >were used.  The experience of yourself and many others in this group >is ample evidence of my supposition.

A few peoples’ experiences from a newsgroup is no evidence at all.  There are millions of psoriatics who use steroids who do _not_ "invariably" get worse psoriasis symptoms. >Steroids only acclerates what >time does to psoriasis-makes it worse faster even if it may offer some >temporary relief.

You’ve got funny ideas about psoriasis.  Where is there evidence that psoriasis gets worse over time, even if untreated? >Yes, long term use will certainly result in more noticeable harm but >short term use will also result in rebound albeit they may not be >recognized immediately.  No, these are not potential risks, they are >real but may not be as noticeable.

Your use of absolutes turns what you write into pseudo-medical nonsense, as you probably know since you also wrote, "The variability of psoriasis is tremendous, from genetics to disease severity, from disease triggers to response to treatment." >However, my >belief that steroids will cause disease progression is combined a >priori and experiential.

What?  How can your belief be based on experiments when you go on to _propose_ an experiment which hasn’t yet been done to test your belief? >The experience of many psoriasis sufferers as posted on this group >will testify to my claim.

Testimonials are worthless as evidence for your claim. – Dave W. http://psorsite.com/

Response:

>Also, what is your definition of a rebound and how do you distinguish >it from a worsening especially when the disease has been stable over >time and worsened after steriod use?

Steve, I haven’t had the (awful) experience myself, but from all accounts the "rebound" effect is completely obvious, if someone with psoriasis goes cold-turkey after getting some relief from steroids. It gets a lot worse, really fast. >  Also, there are lots of things >which may cause disease progression and steriod use is one of them, >regardless of duration and dosage of use.

That just isn’t clear.  It may well be true, but as you said further along in your message, there’s a lot of variability in psoriasis, so it may be a lot more true for some people than for others.  For people with mild psoriasis, using modest amounts of steroids, there are apparently a lot of people who manage to use them and get some relief without major problems. I gather you’re not one of them, and neither am I.  In fact, I know that I am, and perhaps you are, one of those from the other side, for whom steroids quickly cause more problems than they fix.  I am completely with you on the anger and disgust at the first dermatologist I went to who prescribed the stuff, and should have seen quickly that it wasn’t doing much good and was in fact probably causing things to worsen.  However, I’m even angrier at the medical profession as a whole, that has apparently not recognized that there are people like me (and others who pop up on this newsgroup from time to time) for whom even modest amounts of common steroid topicals are downright hazardous. That said, once I realized this, I found that with careful and occassional use, I can get some temporary relief from steroids without any apparent longer-term effects.  I seldom bother, frankly, as it interferes with other treatments.  Only so much skin, so much time.   Also, Kim knows all this stuff, too, and her post was reasonable and informative and I endorse it entirely, fwiw.  If you want to rant at some of us who’ve been here for a while, you can at least be sure you’re preaching to the converted on pretty much all the facts that you cite, and where you wander into some overstatements, as we all may do when we get up a good head of steam, well, that usually gets something of a sympathetic reading, plus or minus a little discussion for any newbies who happen to wander in. On the Elidel (pimecrolimus) cream, I haven’t tried it (probably should), but, well, as Kim said, there are some vague reports of at least quick worsening after Raptiva (nee Xanelim) usage, but certainly not from Amevive, another biologic, with Enbrel sort of in-between (and Remicade seems to have reports of longer-lasting relief).  So, for the biologics overall, it seems the likelihood of actual rebound, where things quickly get worse than before, is rather small.  At least, I don’t recall any reports of it on this newsgroup. On the positive side, there have been several reports on this group of people using Elidel on psoriasis and getting good response, where the psoriasis is on thin skin or is otherwise thin and accessible to topicals.  I’ve seen no reports of it working on thick plaque psoriasis.  However, I did see one report of trials of elidel as some kind of systemic treatment, but never saw any trial results. J.

Response:

> Not at all. The only meds that cause an actual rebound are steroids > and methotrexate (and I believe Xanelim may as well, among the new > biologics being tested, although not sure it that’s official). It’s a > common error – calling any worsening a rebound, when rebound means > something very sepcific and of limited application.

First, have you used Elidel yourself? if not, how do you know that there is no rebound? I have done some search on this topic and it seems that Elidel does not improve psoriasis dramatically and of those who addressed the use of Elidel they did not mention any rebound but I would like to hear from people who have experience using Elidel. Also, what is your definition of a rebound and how do you distinguish it from a worsening especially when the disease has been stable over time and worsened after steriod use?   Also, there are lots of things which may cause disease progression and steriod use is one of them, regardless of duration and dosage of use. >Also, I would like to urge all readers to avoid the use of steriod >creams whenever possible.   > I understand the sentiment behind this, and don’t use them myself, but > you are unnecessarily scaring people with this warning based upon a > mistaken assumption that the results of mis-use/abuse of steroids are > inherent in any use of them.

Again, I must say that I believe any use of a steroid results in worse disease than before starting steroids.  It’s just a matter of degree of how much worse.  First, steroids do not tackle the root of the problem it only suppress symptoms, and while the immune system may be locally suppressed the human body through the HPA axis upregulates the immune system systemically which results in worse disease in other parts of the body.  Even if the steroid is tapered slowly and symptoms seem stable or even improved, the next time psoriasis is triggered through whatever mechanism it is invariably worse than if no steroids were used.  The experience of yourself and many others in this group is ample evidence of my supposition.  Steroids only acclerates what time does to psoriasis-makes it worse faster even if it may offer some temporary relief. > Many derms *are* too quick to prescribe them and keep prescribing them > for too long with insufficient supervision about the results. But > that’s misuse of them.

There is an active search for other meds which may be able to offer relief like steroids but avoid the rebound/suppression effect.   However, meds that suppress the immune system as indiscriminately as many if not all steroids do will invariably result in worse disease. The human body is clever and stubborn and doesn’t like to be told what to do certainly not by steroids.  Again, the fact that you avoid steroids supports my claim if only anecdotally. > The risks of using them come primarily with long term continual use > (with some variation by person on how long qualifies as long term > continual) of higher strengths, and are still only potential risks

Yes, long term use will certainly result in more noticeable harm but short term use will also result in rebound albeit they may not be recognized immediately.  No, these are not potential risks, they are real but may not be as noticeable. > NOTguaranteed problems. They can also be reduced significantly by > using steroids sparingly as part of a combination therapy rather than > over using the streoids alone. > While most people with psoriasis have very mild, stable cases where > proper occasional use of fairly mild steroids is pretty appropriate > and safe, except for individual idiosyncratic reactions.

The variability of psoriasis is tremendous, from genetics to disease severity, from disease triggers to response to treatment.  However, my belief that steroids will cause disease progression is combined a priori and experiential. The experience of many psoriasis sufferers as posted on this group will testify to my claim.  I think that if you add up all the miles that P. sufferers travel back to derms for ever stronger steroid creams you can get enough frequent flier miles to go to the moon. I think that our disagreement can be settled simply with experiments with mice.  Apply steroids to mice with psoriasis for varying amount of times and have control mice who are left alone.  Withdraw the steroid cream from the 1st set of mice however you like provided that they are given ample time for the washout of the steroid from the mice’s system.   I believe that in the end, the mice who are left alone will have less psoriasis. steve

Response:

>I know that there is a nonsteroidal cream out on the market for >eczema.  Have any of the people on this board tried using this cream >for psoriasis or seb. derm.  What results have you obtain using this >cream.  If you have used this cream, Elidel, have you experienced any >rebound effect with Elidel that is certain to happen with steriod >creams.

Check the ng archives, where it has certianly been discussed before: http://pinch.com/skinny?skin=psoriasis+elidel >I suppose that theoretically the dreaded rebound effect is just as >likely with Elidel as with steroid creams.

Not at all. The only meds that cause an actual rebound are steroids and methotrexate (and I believe Xanelim may as well, among the new biologics being tested, although not sure it that’s official). It’s a common error – calling any worsening a rebound, when rebound means something very sepcific and of limited application. >Also, I would like to urge all readers to avoid the use of steriod >creams whenever possible.  

I understand the sentiment behind this, and don’t use them myself, but you are unnecessarily scaring people with this warning based upon a mistaken assumption that the results of mis-use/abuse of steroids are inherent in any use of them. Many derms *are* too quick to prescribe them and keep prescribing them for too long with insufficient supervision about the results. But that’s misuse of them. The risks of using them come primarily with long term continual use (with some variation by person on how long qualifies as long term continual) of higher strengths, and are still only potential risks NOTguaranteed problems. They can also be reduced significantly by using steroids sparingly as part of a combination therapy rather than over using the streoids alone. While most people with psoriasis have very mild, stable cases where proper occasional use of fairly mild steroids is pretty appropriate and safe, except for individual idiosyncratic reactions. Kim The Psoriasis Newsgroup Resource FAQ can be found at               http://www.psoriasisfaq.com but will also be coming soon (twice a month) to a            newsgroup near you…

Response:

I know that there is a nonsteroidal cream out on the market for eczema.  Have any of the people on this board tried using this cream for psoriasis or seb. derm.  What results have you obtain using this cream.  If you have used this cream, Elidel, have you experienced any rebound effect with Elidel that is certain to happen with steriod creams. I suppose that theoretically the dreaded rebound effect is just as likely with Elidel as with steroid creams.  However, since Elidel works in a entirely different manner to all steriod creams it may be able to avoid the rebound effect which results in worse psoriasis than before initiating steriod creams. Also, I would like to urge all readers to avoid the use of steriod creams whenever possible.  Dermatologists tend to prescribe steriod creams in increasing strengths to control psoriasis, however, it results in a vicious cycle as I am sure many people have experienced first hand.  Despite the temporary relief that steriod creams are able to offer, it invariably results in worse psoriasis.  However, I realize that until scientists and clinicians are able to come up with a solution that begins to target the root of the problem, p. sufferers are left with drugs that do more harm to good.

Response: