Question:

First, it’s a treatment, not a cure (not saying it works to begin with!). Second, punctuation can be your friend. Finally, we are not that gullible. Robb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi my name is Angela in 1998 I got psoriasis i never had it bevore in > my 52 years of living. Natural Healing is been my interest in the last > 25 years and I have read and studied a many good books, anyway I went > to a doctor and a specialist for psoriasis none of the medicine did > any good after 6 month and many $$$$$$$ later I started to experiment > on my self with the herbs I picked in the wild, 4 months later trying > everything I know I found some things and after ongly applying it 3 > times the psoriasis disappeared and to this day never came back. for > more info.phone me at.1800 275 533 Extention. 188024.

Response:

> Hi my name is Angela in 1998 I got psoriasis i never had it bevore in > my 52 years of living. Natural Healing is been my interest in the last > 25 years and I have read and studied a many good books, anyway I went > to a doctor and a specialist for psoriasis none of the medicine did > any good after 6 month and many $$$$$$$ later I started to experiment > on my self with the herbs I picked in the wild, 4 months later trying > everything I know I found some things and after ongly applying it 3 > times the psoriasis disappeared and to this day never came back. for > more info.phone me at.1800 275 533 Extention. 188024.

(i would hate to think that this given correctly would take one to a $5.95 a minute charge from some funky South American country.) Dear Angela, In order to call you, a single digit more is required. So i checked the 800 number directory and found only one number under 800-275-533* Your Query "800-275-533*" produced these results: Company Name State Number Categories Rah Tigers Magical Voyage MX 1-800-275-5336 Psychic Tarot Reading The rest of the numbers didn’t show. Are you smoking those herbs? Eating em, topical or ????. I really really wanna believe. But, your one digit short of a full deck. Plus, clicking on your name on deja reveals this to be your one and only post. Yikes! This is weird. Maybe your related to Gil. Like to much non cancerous UVB or something. I hope its not an inverse p relationship. Well if anyone calls the tarot psychic and locates Angela and eats, slathers, smokes her herb and your P goes bye bye, let me know the name of the weed or herbs. BTW thanks angela, your post was timeless. Maybe king-ed can figure…naw. randall…so much good material so little time-the third herbs the charm.

Response:

Hi my name is Angela in 1998 I got psoriasis i never had it bevore in my 52 years of living. Natural Healing is been my interest in the last 25 years and I have read and studied a many good books, anyway I went to a doctor and a specialist for psoriasis none of the medicine did any good after 6 month and many $$$$$$$ later I started to experiment on my self with the herbs I picked in the wild, 4 months later trying everything I know I found some things and after ongly applying it 3 times the psoriasis disappeared and to this day never came back. for more info.phone me at.1800 275 533 Extention. 188024.

Response:

Question:

I just took a tour over to http://skepdic.com. This guy is living proof of that which he sets out to prove in others : a quack. Here is his "scientific" definition of naturopathy : "Naturopathy is a system of therapy and treatment which relies exclusively on natural remedies, such as sunlight, supplemented with diet and massage. However, some naturopaths have been known to prescribe such unnatural treatments as colon hydrotherapy for such diseases as asthma and arthritis." And some man-in-the-moon marigolds bloom in the spring and others don’t. Right. Can you believe this ?  Make up your own mind about things that do or don’t work for you. Steve

Response:

>I just took a tour over to http://skepdic.com. This guy is living >proof of that which he sets out to prove in others : a quack.

So you’d consider critical thinking to be an unproven or disproven method of healing, then?  It’s no wonder you’re so confused, Gary. >Here is his "scientific" definition of naturopathy :

You might have gotten more out of your "tour" had you read "scientific" as the word that’s really on the Web site: "skeptical."  Carroll doesn’t even try to present "scientific" definitions of non-sciences.  He presents *skeptical* information about those non-sciences. >"Naturopathy is a system of therapy and treatment which relies >exclusively on natural remedies, such as sunlight, supplemented with >diet and massage. However, some naturopaths have been known to >prescribe such unnatural treatments as colon hydrotherapy for such >diseases as asthma and arthritis." >And some man-in-the-moon marigolds bloom in the spring and others >don’t. Right. Can you believe this ?

Yes, I can believe that you don’t understand what Carroll has written in even this tiny entry in his dictionary.  The first sentence is an acceptable definition of what naturopathy is.  The second is a criticism of *some* naturopaths who use a treatment method which is obviously UNnatural. Your marigold analogy is not analogous to what’s written on that page. >Make up your own mind about things that do or don’t work for you.

Absolutely!  The problem with naturopaths and other quacks is that they’ll tell you that what’s good for them must be good for you, too. – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

Response:

DaveW,    Thanks for the response and I would say your thoughts are IMHO correct. I wish to thank all who present info which may or may not be useful to the rest of us. I also value your thought that one should only claim "it worked for me" and then allow others to determine on their own if it does for them. Terry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Avagard, >   What makes Dave’s info any better then someone claiming they have >tried something and it cured them? > For one thing, let’s compare apples to apples.  The page Ava linked to > was about how there’s probably not a conspiracy of some sort to keep > psoriasis cures off the market.  This is vastly different from someone > popping up here claiming that they’ve been cured, without the benefit > (obviously) of seeing their remission last forever. >The page you showed did not provide >any medical or clinical credentials which show an advanced educational >process or work related field that gives his site an edge. > What ‘edge’ is required?  You’ve posited nothing more here than a > corollary to the "argument from authority" logical fallacy.  Since > I *don’t* have a degree of any sort, who cares what I say – right? > Wrong.  Whether or not I have a degree or credentials doesn’t matter > one bit if I am, indeed, *correct*.  If I went out and got a PhD in > economics, would that make my basic argument (on the page Ava linked) > any better?  Not necessarily.  The ancient thinkers who are the basis > for scientific thinking in this day-and-age did *not* have the benefit > of "degrees" or "credentials".  By your logic, we should ignore what > they said so long ago.  Yet, if you look at the published works of > modern scientists, they continue to rely on and cite those ancients. > Flipping things around, there are plenty of examples of people who > have credentials, degrees, etc., getting things completely wrong. > Look at the "mental health" thread for many personal examples.  Look > to any number of M.D.s who are thought of as "kooks" by the vast > majority of people with better degrees than them. > The point is, my information usually comes with citations to > appropriate sources for more information, from degreed individuals. > When someone pops up on this newsgroup claiming to have a "cure," > they usualy don’t have any support at all.  Which is better? > A second point is that it shouldn’t require a biochemical background > to at least make sense of all the medical stuff we’re fed by the press > and our peers.  "Critical Thinking" is often, unfortunately, not taught > in schools.  You can’t get a degree in critical thinking as far as I > know.  But it’s so damned important in day-to-day life that it really > *should* have degrees of its own. >   I too would not ask my mechanic or others about medical treatments >but if they offered information that worked for them and it did not harm >them I would think about trying it. If not trying it researching the >data to see if there is some possibility. > So would I. >   This site like others love to jump those who express and opinion or >who had a good experience for sharing. > Nonsense.  Some people, myself included, "jump on" UNREASONABLE claims > for a "cure" where no evidence exists.  Do I "love" doing so?  Hell, no, > I wish I never felt obligated to do so (see above on critical thinking). > You are ignoring many cases where someone said "this weird thing worked > for me," and nobody "jumped on" them.  What they didn’t say, which has > been Ava’s (and my) point all along, is that whatever it is they did > which worked will work for anyone else.  Saying simply, "here’s what I > did, and these are the results" is both reasonable and fairly rational. > People get "jumped on" for thinking that what they did, and their own, > personal, results, always apply to everyone else.  That is nothing but > arrogance or delusion. >The remedy or whatever you wish >to call it does not have to work for all but it may help others if >shared. > Sure.  But there are responsible and irrational ways of sharing. >I thought that was one of the reasons for these groups to share >experiences and help each other; am I wrong? > Of course you’re not wrong.  It’s just that saying "this worked for me > and it must work for you, too," is not really "support" for anyone > but the person posting.  Most of those who write such things are not > "sharing," they’re "demanding to be heard."  If one disagrees with them, > it’s liable to turn ugly, just as it did this time.  They’re not really > interested in learning if what they did is part of the Truth about > Psoriasis, they already think it *is* the Truth.  And damn you if you > think differently. > Is that "support"? > – Dave W. > http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

Response:

I’m new here but Amy, I failed to see sarcasm in Ava’s original post. What I read was someone going out of their way to avoid stepping on toes before stating a position. The original post touting cure looked like a spam for Natural remedies, oh well. Hey I hope the remission lasts forever if it was p. But come on no facts, details whatsoever? Jmo 2 cents… paul white – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > 1. There are many truths. > 2.  Science and the scientific method are much broader and more complex than > that which you read on Medline. > 3.  Sometimes people express disillusionment with the medical profession. > These emotions are often based in personal experience rather than the "facts" > listed on the Internet sources so frequently cited here.  Some of these people > may not have the educational background, the time, and/or the desire to hunt > for relevent sources to support their perceptions and experience. This does not > mean they are "begging" for sarcasm in reply. > Amy

Response:

>THANKS for this interesting link!

I’ve been linking to articles at The Skeptic’s Dictionary site for about two years now.  Most often when discussions of Pagano and/or Cacye crop up. And if you like that site, see also:    http://www.quackwatch.com/    http://www.randi.org/    http://www.skepticnews.com/    http://www.straightdope.com/ And go get some Carl Sagan, Michael Shermer, and/or Martin Gardener books from the library.  Subscribe to The Skeptical Enquirer.  Join your local skeptic society. >I love this guy, but who IS he?  He refers to himself sending a proposal >out to an agent, but is he also a prof somewhere?

Yes, he’s a professor of philosophy at a California University (I believe it’s UC Davis).  I *remeber* more details, but have been unable to find much. The best I came up with was an interview done in Australia, reprinted by Carroll himself:    http://skepdic.com/sydneyinterview.html I was unable to find anything like a biography of the man. > I think the site is a very nice kind of Cliff notes on the skeptic movement >PRE-1960, but it ignores the f-word (feminism) and the ways the influx of >women and other minority groups transformed the skeptic’s view of science.

I’m not sure that any such influx *has* changed the skeptic’s view of science.  Care to explain more? >Evelyn Fox Keller is one early reference.

While I’m dead-set against sexism (and as part of that, "feminism", with its implication that women are somehow better than men), I can’t see where Keller’s made significant contributions to skepticism or a skeptical view of science.  Tooling around on the Web has shown me nothing but what a good scientist she is, and made good contributions to her chosen field. But not all scientists are skeptics, and not all skeptics are scientists. >There are empirical examples of how the >investigator’s choices of topic, methodology, method of analysis, and data >interpretation were all shaped by their identity in time and place, the >biological construction of the brain and perception, lots of other stuff.

Those biases are what good science tries to eliminate.  Are you saying that we should embrace them? >Science, as Todd says is a process, and it continues to build upon itself. >This isn’t even controversial anymore in the academic history of science >halls.

Right.  But getting back to the topic of this thread, and your previous reply, the fact that science progresses makes things like Pagano’s diet and other such pseudoscience even less scientific.  They don’t progress. >There are other things missing from the site.  I don’t want to parse out >errors and omissions, because I like the site, I generally agree with the >ideas.

This wouldn’t be an appropriate place for that, anyway.  Send an email to Carroll himself. >My original theme was just that people should just be nice to each other, >even when the other is "wrong".

Then why did I find your posts so nasty? >Killified?  Of COURSE not, I look forward to reading your posts!  I’m on my >own with 2 (adorable) children, swimming as hard as I can to stay afloat in >stormy seas.  I rarely have time for long replies like this. Rather than spend >my limited time in a long discussion on one thread, I like to poke my nose in >all over.  I recently was asked to join a medical trial.  I was not at all pleased >with the process, and I’ve been meaning to write that up as a new thread, but >haven’t had the time for that either.  I wasn’t ignoring you, I was letting >you have the last word!

Having the last word is not something I require.  An apology or other form of "’fessing-up" for blatant falsehoods is, however, something I desire.  I’ve come to not expect any such thing, though. It occurs to me that perhaps if you had spent more time on those previous posts, making your ‘theme’ more clear, then maybe we wouldn’t be having this discussion.  I can see where a lack of time could lead to some of the statements you’ve made (something which has happened to me in the past). – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

Response:

>2.  Science and the scientific method are much broader and more complex than >that which you read on Medline. >

Question:

[big fat snip of everything except Tim's immortal line <g>:] > > > If Ed is controlling this group he is not doing a very good job of it. > Sorry to follow up to my self but I can find the  *cmsg newgroup > alt.support.skin-diseases.psoriasis*  but not a charter.

http://www.pinch.com/skin/docs/newsgroup/ The messages aren’t dated because I grabbed them from my newsreader’s saved .article files long after the messages had expired. Dunno why they aren’t in the net archive. They propagated and were verified on other servers at the time. Anyone thinking of sending out new control messages, please let me know. A booster message should have some items added about promotion and harassing or intentionally disruptive posts. We hadn’t envisioned such problems when drafting the first charter. I frequently offer a link to my posting guide, which contains a link to the charter, and what I believe to be the consensus policy of the group. I’ve yet to hear any serious objections to the content, other than that it’s tediously long and verbose (like my posts). http://www.pinch.com/skin/guide.html A tip of the hat to our friend Steve Krause who actually sent the first newgroup message for this group. Thanks, Steve! — Ed "keeper of the flames" Anderson

Response:

You are lost in usenet.  This is an unmoderated alt group–no one is running it. Go here to find out where you are–it is not AOL: http://www.landfield.com/usenet/ and then come back and try again–maybe with something that makes sense.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The members running this newsgroup have become so restrictive that people are > not posting their ideas in fear of being insulted and rulled out. > Even if so one has some information that can help others, the information is > not being relayed due to the restrictions. > I hear a lot about MG217 being recommended by the people who dominate the > newsgroup, hope there is no financial gain involved.

Response:

<snip> > You are a very bad mouthed fellow, I don’t know where you came from > but as a suggestion, could you please go back there! I have opened two > of your posts and they are loud mouthed and arrogant to the > originators, who do you think you are to be responding as you do? You > are definitely a bad mouth and I for one will no longer open or > acknowledge your mean spirited posting. Goodby.

You too are lost try here: http://www.landfield.com/usenet/ this is an unmoderated alt newsgroup.  And I agree with Alexender–try

Response:

> This NG is controlled by Ed Anderson and some others (maybe him himself) but > you can use the other NG.

Oh my but it hurts to laugh this hard.

Response:

>> This NG is controlled by Ed Anderson and some others (maybe him himself) >> but you can use the other NG. > If Ed is controlling this group he is not doing a very good job of it. > Thanks Tim, you made my day! I’m tempted to adopt it as a .sig file. > BTW, has anyone else ever noticed that after spraying a computer screen, > it’s covered with tiny magnifying glasses? > — Ed "still laughing every time I think of it" Anderson

Glad to meet you mister all powerful.  I’ve not posted here in a while.  The P causes me far less trouble than the PA and my struggle has been for pain control.  But I sure would like it if you could tell me how you control an unmoderated alt newsgroup that I cannot even find a charter for here: ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/ this is too funny.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> This NG is controlled by Ed Anderson and some others (maybe him > himself) > >> but you can use the other NG. > > If Ed is controlling this group he is not doing a very good job of it. > Thanks Tim, you made my day! I’m tempted to adopt it as a .sig file. > BTW, has anyone else ever noticed that after spraying a computer screen, > it’s covered with tiny magnifying glasses? > — Ed "still laughing every time I think of it" Anderson > Glad to meet you mister all powerful.  I’ve not posted here in a while. The > P causes me far less trouble than the PA and my struggle has been for pain > control.  But I sure would like it if you could tell me how you control an > unmoderated alt newsgroup that I cannot even find a charter for here: > ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/ > this is too funny.

Sorry to follow up to my self but I can find the  *cmsg newgroup alt.support.skin-diseases.psoriasis*  but not a charter.

Response:

>You are a very bad mouthed fellow, I don’t know where you came from >but as a suggestion, could you please go back there! I have opened two >of your posts and they are loud mouthed and arrogant to the >originators, who do you think you are to be responding as you do? You >are definitely a bad mouth and I for one will no longer open or >acknowledge your mean spirited posting. Goodby.

Since you won’t be opening this, I may be wasting keystrokes, but let me explain my attitude. I come to this group to get relevant information regarding psoriasis. If you do some research beyond my two latest posts, you’ll see that I’m usually a reasonable poster, and I think I’m usually on topic. In the case of this thread, I’m just tired of seeing a small group of people continue to post off-topic messages because they feel they are persecuted by some evil entity controlling the newsgroup. In this case, the poster of the original message has, in the past, provided inaccurate and incomplete information which could be damaging to the unwary. I’m sorry if I’ve offended you but this annoys me. In the other post you refer to (I assume the hemp oil thread) I was challenging the accuracy of the statements made by the original poster. Instead of getting an intelligent response, I got vulgarity and non-information. I admit my reply was somewhat arrogant, but considering the language I was responding to, I felt it was justified. Again, sorry if you were offended, but I won’t apologize for speaking my mind.

Response:

Yer nutz. J.

Response:

>> If Ed is controlling this group he is not doing a very good job of it. >That is the FUNNIEST post I’ve read this week!

I think it rises to "Post of the Month" level, myself.  :) – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

Response:

>> This NG is controlled by Ed Anderson and some others (maybe him himself) > but you can use the other NG. > If Ed is controlling this group he is not doing a very good job of it.

Thanks Tim, you made my day! I’m tempted to adopt it as a .sig file. BTW, has anyone else ever noticed that after spraying a computer screen, it’s covered with tiny magnifying glasses? — Ed "still laughing every time I think of it" Anderson

Response:

Hi Ed, Yeah, noticed it a while ago, so here’s what I did: 1. Moved monitor outside into sun, 2. Stood in front of all dem magnifying glasses, 3. 99% clear, Don’t EVER loose hope! Theo van Niekerk IT, SABINET Online "Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a banana" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> BTW, has anyone else ever noticed that after spraying a computer screen, > it’s covered with tiny magnifying glasses? > — Ed "still laughing every time I think of it" Anderson

Response:

i was one of the people who recommended mg217 as a good treatment. no i dod not have any financial interests in it.  i get it off the shelves like everyone else.  i like it beciase it made my skin soft and cleared up some of the scaling.  it did not "cure me"  but it helped a little bit.  i do not appreciate giving someone an objective opinion about a product i have tried without being accused of trying to sell it.

Response:

If Ed is controlling this group he is not doing a very good job of it. Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This NG is controlled by Ed Anderson and some others (maybe him himself) but > you can use the other NG.

Response:

> I hear a lot about MG217 being recommended by the people who dominate the > newsgroup, hope there is no financial gain involved.

At 9 bucks a jar it wouldn’t be much financial gain. MG217 is mentioned a lot because it’s carried by most drug stores and readily available. Personally, I didn’t find it to do anything more that any good moisturizing lotion does for me, even with the coal tar and sal acid. Scott —

Response:

> This NG is controlled by Ed Anderson and some others (maybe him himself) but > you can use the other NG. > Visit our scam site for Psoriasis ripoff: > http://uvblamps.8m.com/

Good idea Gil, on your way out, why don’t you escort him there personally!

Response:

> I really don’t want to get into a battle here, but you have posted about 46 > messages to this group since October of 1998. In nearly all of them you are > promoting the sale of products available at your website, ranging from Skin > Cap to Blue Cap to Neem Cream, and so on. If there is any "financial gain > involved", it seems the attempt is yours.

Good point Janet.  Obviously "the information is not being relayed due to the restrictions", actually translates to: "the wool is not being pullover people eyes because of good communication"… Scott —

Response:

> If Ed is controlling this group he is not doing a very good job of it.

That is the FUNNIEST post I’ve read this week! Thanks, Tim Jerry J http://www.jhj.com/pbooks/

Response:

>i do not appreciate giving someone an objective opinion about a >product i have tried without being accused of trying to sell it.

And you shouldn’t have to put up with such nonsense, either. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: If you’re going to accuse someone of shilling for a product, have some real proof before you do so.  Anyone can type (for example) "I think you’re suggesting MG217 because you sell the stuff."  But how many who type such things have any proof? It’s *easy* to point the finger, but hard to back it up. On the other hand, we’ve seen people come into this newsgroup who wrote "I tried such-and-such, and my skin cleared right up!"  They post a link to a Web site, and we find the same email address for contact information there.  Now that’s real evidence.  Those are the real shills, who aren’t welcomed here by most. And now a plea to almost everyone (but mostly lurkers):  If you’ve tried something, and it worked for you, and you want to tell us about it, go right ahead.  Tell us where you get it.  Include Web links if you’ve got them.  Don’t write "I don’t sell it."  *Don’t*.  It does nothing but add to the general level of fear and mistrust.  Most of us will (or should) take it on faith that you’re just another happy customer. But…  At the same time, don’t try to convince us it’ll work for us.  Don’t use the word "cure."  After all, too much "selling" and people will start to think you’re a salesman.  Those who hear of something that they might want to try will do so without being "sold," and those who aren’t interested won’t try it no matter how much you proclaim its benefits. Also, be prepared for negative responses.  The mildest of these will be along the lines of "I tried it, and it didn’t work for me."  The strongest will be outright flames, but that’s part of what I’m trying to discourage with this post.  In between, you might, find me or someone else similarly inclined saying that while we’re glad you found help, there’s some sort of evidence that the product is just a scam, or that there are cheaper alternatives.  These are *not* personal attacks against you, nor a way of saying that you’re lying when you claim you found great relief. Not everything works for everyone.  Some things seem to only work for a very select few.  I am *genuinely* happy when anyone finds relief through just about any means.  However, if that therapy is dangerous, or doesn’t work as well as someone claims, expect that I or someone else will speak up about it so that everybody else can make an informed decision based on the positives *and* the negatives. Hopefully, we can find ways to post these "negative" replies without even being thought of as being rude or insensitive. Anyway, I, for one, really like hearing "it worked for me" stories.  And no honest person who posts one should have to put up with anyone even *implying* that they’re selling "it," nor should they feel obligated to write any sort of "I don’t sell this stuff" disclaimer.  Those who are trying to move product will usually be found out, and those who accuse people of selling without any hard evidence are just being rude, and can be ignored. – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

Response:

> But, you’re not nearly as bad as a few who just seem to *need* to be > beligerent (RY, KK, and the clones) and get much worse — perhaps > because they are dim-witted but very definately immature.

How dare you make such obviously ridicules statements.  Kevin, you are the most cynical self-centered worthless waste of time on this newsgroup.  I can

Question:

>…Coal tar is a known carcinogen and that combined with the sunlight >could increase the possibility of skin cancer, so you should minimize >your exposure.

Well, coal tar does not increase the risk of skin cancer by itself when used medicinally (occupational exposure is a different matter).  Coal tar may increase the risk of skin cancer from the sun due to its photosensitizing properties, not due to its carcinogenic properties. >However, I have had dermatologists tell me to apply coal tar to lesions, >then get into the light box to increase the reaction to the light.

This is called Goeckerman’s regimen.  The point to the coal tar is to actually *lower* the amount of UV light you have to be exposed to. – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

Response:

>…for some reason lately I seem to be quite susceptible to that skin >trauma syndrome (can’t remember the name–K-something).

Koebner phenomenon.  :) >Actually, I’m thinking of trying the salicylic ointment on one spot all by >itself for a while and see how it compares with the coal tar.  But a >colorless, odorless, non-steroidal ointment that actually feels good >going on sounds too good to be true!

Well, salicylic acid is useful in removing the scales, but don’t expect too much from it in treating the inflammation.  At really high concentrations, salicylic acid is the main ingredient in wart removers (and I would recommend not even *thinking* of trying that <g>). See http://members.aol.com/psorsite/salacid.html – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

Response:

That was the impression I got–which is one reason I stopped using it in favor of the coal tar stuff as soon as the scales were gone. While we’re on the subject, how does one safely take some sun while using (even this relatively mild) coal tar? Should I wait 24 hours before and/or after? Does sunscreen block the helpful effects of moderate sunning? Regards, Susan

<snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, salicylic acid is useful in removing the scales, but don’t expect > too much from it in treating the inflammation.  At really high > concentrations, salicylic acid is the main ingredient in wart removers > (and I would recommend not even *thinking* of trying that <g>). > See http://members.aol.com/psorsite/salacid.html > – Dave W. > http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

Response:

>…While we’re on the subject, how does one safely take some sun >while using (even this relatively mild) coal tar? Should I wait 24 hours >before and/or after?

Tough question.  I think it’s a matter of personal experience more than anything else.  My tub of MG217 says it will increase tendency to sunburn up to 24 hours after application.  While this isn’t a blanket warning to stay out of the sun, if I were someone who burned easily, I think I’d hide in a cave while using it.  I would think it’s all a matter of playing things really safely.  Given the time delay between the act of burning and when you really notice it, this is a really tough question indeed. I suppose a comparison of typical durations of straight UVB therapy and Goeckerman’s therapy might give a good starting point.  If, for example, GT treatment times were typically half of plain UVB, I’d avoid staying in the sun longer than half the time it would normally take to burn me.  But since GT and plain UVB only use one part of the UV spectrum, that’s probably just wishful thinking.  I have no idea about how coal tar effects sensitivity to UVA or UVC. >Does sunscreen block the helpful effects of moderate sunning?

Another good question, especially in relation to coal tar, for which I have no good answer.  From what I’ve read on this newsgroup and elsewhere, opinions differ greatly.  About the only thing that’s common is that sunblock on non-psoriatic skin is necessary (as it would be for anyone else).  The question of whether or not sunblock on a plaque hinders the beneficial effects of sun seems to be open.  Anyone else? – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

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>>…While we’re on the subject, how does one safely take some sun >while using (even this relatively mild) coal tar? Should I wait 24 hours >before and/or after?

There is no such thing as "safe" sunlight, but as long as you are careful, it probably won’t be a big factor.  Coal tar is a known carcinogen and that combined with the sunlight could increase the possibility of skin cancer, so you should minimize your exposure.   However, I have had dermatologists tell me to apply coal tar to lesions, then get into the light box to increase the reaction to the light.  The important thing is to get the least amount of sunlight that will actually help the lesions, but not go overboard.  Slight pinking up of the skin is ok, but too much is no good. And you should always be aware of what your normal skin looks like and report to the dermie if you see anything that looks abnormal, especially in a mole. >Does sunscreen block the helpful effects of moderate sunning?

I really don’t know… I suspect it might not be a bad idea to apply sunscreen to the normal areas of skin, leaving just the lesions to get more sunlight. But of course if you can get clearing without sunlight, that would be safer. Also don’t forget that you will indeed be getting sunlight even if you stay in the shade.  Light is reflected all over the place, and you may even get a burn in the shade if your skin is sensitized by the tar. Best to start out with short exposures and not overdo it at all.  Burns are always dangerous and are cummulative in their effects.  Remember you want only to improve the psoriasis, not go out for a tan.  :) Best regards,

Response:

The best commercial product is Estar.

Response:

>You ignore the scintific artilcles and many statistics that proves that >coal tar or / and UVB tanning DO NOT cause skin cancer, why do you >do it ???  You can read the whole articles in my site below. >Show me ONE article that proves what you claim.

Susan’s question, and Lady Andy’s response, were both about *sunlight*, not UVB.  I cannot imagine that you have any reports that prove that the sun does not cause skin cancer. Coal tar is a known carcinogen to coal mine workers, chimney sweeps, asphalt layers, and others whose exposure to it is *much* higher than those, like most of us, who use coal tar medicinally. – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

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You ignore the scintific artilcles and many statistics that proves that coal tar or / and UVB tanning DO NOT cause skin cancer, why do you do it ??? You can read the whole articles in my site below. Show me ONE article that proves what you claim. Gil — Visit our site for Psoriasis cure: http://uvblamps.8m.com/ G.T.marketing  7 Hachavazelet street Jerusalem 94224 ISRAEL Internet sites: http://uvblamps.8m.com/ http://www.myfreeoffice.com/uvblamps/

Response:

My extremely scientific method was to put a gob of one ointment on my index finger and a gob of the other on my middle finger and then smear them both around the affected area; I guess I used about a 50/50 mix. I stopped using the sal. ointment after a few days because I was afraid of irritating my skin; for some reason lately I seem to be quite susceptible to that skin trauma syndrome (can’t remember the name–K-something). Actually, I’m thinking of trying the salicylic ointment on one spot all by itself for a while and see how it compares with the coal tar. But a colorless, odorless, non-steroidal ointment that actually feels good going on sounds too good to be true! Good luck, Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m delighted to hear about your good results. I’ll give it another try. In > what proportions did you make the mixture? > Thanks in advance, > -Mike > Ah ha! The perfect opportunity for me to add to the ‘MG-217′ thread that > came and went a couple of weeks ago. After reading some of the posts, I > bought both (salicylic acid and coaltar) ointments and got excellent > results > on my mild psoriasis. The sal. ointment is completely odorless and totally > removed any scales; I’m now using just the coal tar version, which leaves > my > skin smooth, although still slightly pink where the plaques were.Both > ointments have a nice consistency, slightly less greasy and thick than > petroleum jelly, and the coal tar ointment is non-staining and not as > strong > smelling as some others I’ve tried, which means I’m more likely to use it > regularly. Neither of them is too pricey: around the $10 US range. > Good luck, > Susan > > > I’ve suffered with this damn disease for years, only relief seems to > come from > > > coal tar. does any one know where I can aquire it with out > prescription? > > You don’t need a prescription for coal tar products, there are several > available > > over the counter at any good drug store.  Just read the label and you > will > find > > quite a few with coal tar.  MG-217 makes two ointments, one has coal tar > and you > > should be able to find it without much problem.  Try a Walgreens if one > is > near > > you… > > Scott > > —

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I’m delighted to hear about your good results. I’ll give it another try.  In what proportions did you make the mixture? Thanks in advance, -Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ah ha! The perfect opportunity for me to add to the ‘MG-217′ thread that > came and went a couple of weeks ago. After reading some of the posts, I > bought both (salicylic acid and coaltar) ointments and got excellent results > on my mild psoriasis. The sal. ointment is completely odorless and totally > removed any scales; I’m now using just the coal tar version, which leaves my > skin smooth, although still slightly pink where the plaques were.Both > ointments have a nice consistency, slightly less greasy and thick than > petroleum jelly, and the coal tar ointment is non-staining and not as strong > smelling as some others I’ve tried, which means I’m more likely to use it > regularly. Neither of them is too pricey: around the $10 US range. > Good luck, > Susan > > I’ve suffered with this damn disease for years, only relief seems to > come from > > coal tar. does any one know where I can aquire it with out prescription? > You don’t need a prescription for coal tar products, there are several > available > over the counter at any good drug store.  Just read the label and you will > find > quite a few with coal tar.  MG-217 makes two ointments, one has coal tar > and you > should be able to find it without much problem.  Try a Walgreens if one is > near > you… > Scott > —

Response:

Ah ha! The perfect opportunity for me to add to the ‘MG-217′ thread that came and went a couple of weeks ago. After reading some of the posts, I bought both (salicylic acid and coaltar) ointments and got excellent results on my mild psoriasis. The sal. ointment is completely odorless and totally removed any scales; I’m now using just the coal tar version, which leaves my skin smooth, although still slightly pink where the plaques were.Both ointments have a nice consistency, slightly less greasy and thick than petroleum jelly, and the coal tar ointment is non-staining and not as strong smelling as some others I’ve tried, which means I’m more likely to use it regularly. Neither of them is too pricey: around the $10 US range. Good luck, Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve suffered with this damn disease for years, only relief seems to come from > coal tar. does any one know where I can aquire it with out prescription? > You don’t need a prescription for coal tar products, there are several available > over the counter at any good drug store.  Just read the label and you will find > quite a few with coal tar.  MG-217 makes two ointments, one has coal tar and you > should be able to find it without much problem.  Try a Walgreens if one is near > you… > Scott > —

Response:

See if you wait long enough the same subject will come back. Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ah ha! The perfect opportunity for me to add to the ‘MG-217′ thread that > came and went a couple of weeks ago. After reading some of the posts, I > bought both (salicylic acid and coaltar) ointments and got excellent results > on my mild psoriasis. The sal. ointment is completely odorless and totally > removed any scales; I’m now using just the coal tar version, which leaves my > skin smooth, although still slightly pink where the plaques were.Both > ointments have a nice consistency, slightly less greasy and thick than > petroleum jelly, and the coal tar ointment is non-staining and not as strong > smelling as some others I’ve tried, which means I’m more likely to use it > regularly. Neither of them is too pricey: around the $10 US range. > Good luck, > Susan

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> I’ve suffered with this damn disease for years, only relief seems to come from > coal tar. does any one know where I can aquire it with out prescription?

You don’t need a prescription for coal tar products, there are several available over the counter at any good drug store.  Just read the label and you will find quite a few with coal tar.  MG-217 makes two ointments, one has coal tar and you should be able to find it without much problem.  Try a Walgreens if one is near you… Scott —

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>I’ve suffered with this damn disease for years, only relief seems to >come from coal tar. does any one know where I can aquire it with out >prescription?

Depends on where you live.  There are lots of over-the-counter coal tars available here in the States.  See    http://members.aol.com/psorsite/coaltar.html for an as-of-yet incomplete listing of coal tar preparations. – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

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In Israel you can buy pure coal tar in most pharmacies. cost about 10 dollars for 30cc. you can mix it 5-10 percent with Vaseline or parafin oil. There is liquid coal tar and solid. The solid is black, difficult to wash and has terible smell. The liquid (purified) has also bad smell. If you mix it with a bath liquid soap and use it as a soap you will also get good results, wait 1-2 minutes before washing. You can also mix with shampoo, put protect from eyes. Gil Visit our site for Psoriasis cure: http://uvblamps.8m.com/ G.T.marketing  7 Hachavazelet street Jerusalem 94224 ISRAEL Internet sites: http://uvblamps.8m.com/ http://www.myfreeoffice.com/uvblamps/

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Go to any drug store and ask them for some. They can order coal tar liquid then you can mix with mineral oil or petroleum jelly. Last time I got some was at Walgreens. Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve suffered with this damn disease for years, only relief seems to come from > coal tar. does any one know where I can aquire it with out prescription? > You don’t need a prescription for coal tar products, there are several available > over the counter at any good drug store.  Just read the label and you will find > quite a few with coal tar.  MG-217 makes two ointments, one has coal tar and you > should be able to find it without much problem.  Try a Walgreens if one is near > you… > Scott > —

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I’ve suffered with this damn disease for years, only relief seems to come from coal tar. does any one know where I can aquire it with out prescription?

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Question:

>hello!  i need help!.  i am currently 4 months pregnant and am having bad >Psoriasis flare-ups on my face, and neck. [snip] >  i would like to know if anyone has information on the effects of Exorex (or >any other medications for that matter) during pregnancy.

[posted and emailed] Hi Kristen – Did you know that the National Psoriasis Foundation has a handout available called "Conception, Pregnancy and Psoriasis?" http://www.psoriasis.org/booklets.html The booklet not only discusses treatment options during pregnancy, but talks about breastfeeding and has some information about the genetic aspects of psoriasis. Also, you may want to do a search for information about pregnancy at their site: http://www.psoriasis.org/searchtools/wwwwais/npfwais.cgi Most importantly, have you spoken with your dermatologist or OB/GYN? They may be able to help you to figure out a treatment plan for this time. – Linda

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>i would like to know if anyone has information on the effects of Exorex >(or any other medications for that matter) during pregnancy.

Unfortunately, no.  There is not a lot of testing done on pregnant women with drugs, unless those drugs are specifically for use during pregnancy or for use almost exclusively by women.  The reasons should be pretty obvious, as who’s going to really take the chance, however small it might be? Most of the time, drugs will come with pregnancy warnings which advise close supervision by a doctor, and terminating immediately upon just about *any* untracable symptom.  They’ll also say things like that there have been no tests during pregnancy, but there have been no significant patterns of adverse effects on the foetus.  Basically means that the number of birth defects or developmental problems or whatnot haven’t been any higher than average for those women who *did* use a particular drug while pregnant.  It’s far from a guarantee, but it’s about the best that can be expected under the circumstances. Coal tar probably falls in this category, too.  There don’t seem to be any studies or reports out there warning about serious problems.  However, Exorex in particular is claimed by the manufacturer to have some ingredients which help the coal tar penetrate the skin better (better than, say, coal tar mixed into Vaseline).  The answer to the question is, "nobody knows for sure, one way or the other."  It’s probably safer to avoid coal tar completely during pregnancy, in general (don’t do any chimney sweeping or road paving while pregnant, either <g>). – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/

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> I thought that Psoriasis becomes better at pregnancy. > <snip> > I noticed my first spot of Ps under my wedding ring while I was pregnant for > our second child ( a boy ), by the time he was 6 wks old I was covered > front,back, and top to bottom and I’ve had it ever since in varying forms of > severity.

    Jean:)  ( using Freds’ machine )

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<…> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I know this is a little rambling, but I do believe that we all need to make > an informed choice of the meds we use. Sometimes the good of the med > outweighs the bad, but at no time should you take a med without knowing the > possible side effects or risks you will suffer from them. I stuck with a > derm for (?) 3 years who never discussed meds or anything else with me. He > came in looked at my "body parts"  then said here’s your prescription see > you next month. If I hadn’t been a nurse I may have not had access to > information on those meds and known the risks.  All I can say is it is so > nice to be on the internet and have info at my fingertips.

Well I snipped, but not because it was rambling (which it wasn’t). Trust me, I know from rambling : ) Just wanted to emphatically agree -understanding the importance of getting info and making an informed judgement about how you treat your P is one of the most important lessons people should pick up here. More important than opinoins about specific therapies or theories about what does what or who to believe in the periodic bickering over alternative vs conventional meds. Ask. Find out. Question. Don’t assume. Then THINK. Don’t just submit to treatments, use them well and for good reasons that you understand and understand/accept the consequences of rather than shrug off or think what harm can it do. Plus, the big corollary is that you’ve got to pro-active and ASK your doctor and insist on info. Don’t wait for them to offer it and resent them because they didn’t when you also never asked (if they refuse it is another issue). Derms vary, like any other group of people, and you need to take some responsibility for your care yourself. Even with the best will in the world, a derm’s habits may have been formed by patients who didn’t want to hear all that technical stufff, and he may think he’s doing you a favor by not ‘drowning’ you with too much info. Ask, learn, think, participate in your care. Don’t be a victim to the disease or those it forces you to deal with, from spammers to derms. Look upon getting info and making informed decisions as a way for you to regain some of the control over your life that living with the disease has stolen away. Babe- now THERE’S a ramble : ) But thanks for your excellent post. And if it’s any comfort from an anecdotal evidence standpoint, my Mom was a lifelong kenalog and other steroid cream addict on her skin and I thrived up to a solid 5 foot 9 inches plus. -Kim

Response:

hello!  i need help!.  i am currently 4 months pregnant and am having bad Psoriasis flare-ups on my face, and neck.       i have been using Exorex on my face – being under the impression that it is natural and made from banana peels and that it wouldn’t hurt the baby.     i have since read that Exorex is NOT natural, and NOT made from banana peels, and that it is infact a tar based solution.     i would like to know if anyone has information on the effects of Exorex (or any other medications for that matter) during pregnancy.     i am having a hard time getting rid of the Psoriasis on my face with over the counter medications and feel i need something stronger.    i was told by me dermatologist that Dovonex is not good during pregnancy, but she didn’t have any information on Exorex….and i can’t find any news (good or bad) here on the web…..if someone can help, please e-mail me.  thanx for your time and for listening! take care!        Kristen…..NJ

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> I am currently 4 months pregnant and am having bad > Psoriasis flare-ups on my face, and neck. > I have been using Exorex on my face – being under the impression that it is > natural and made from banana peels and that it wouldn’t hurt the baby. > Ii have since read that Exorex is NOT natural, and NOT made from banana > peels, and that it is infact a tar based solution.

Because of your pregnant condition, I would stop using the coal tar lotion for the remainder of the term.  Coal tar does carry warnings of being a carcinogen.  Even though the probability of it causing cancer are quite low, I don’t think its something you want in your blood stream during pregnancy.  I recommend you switch to just a moisturizing lotion and ride out the flares for the remaining months. This may sound stupid, but instead of buying a large bottle of moisturizer, try buy several small bottles of different brands/types.  The war with my Ps always seems to be more in my favor if I keep it guessing… Good luck, Scott —

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When I was pregnant my psoriasis flared also.  I went to a genetic counselor and was advised against coal tar.  Absolutely no Dovonex or Tazorac.  I used alot of moisturizer(Aquaphor worked best), a home UVB lamp.  I was also told the last month I could use my steroids again since it would not harm the baby in this stage.  Check with your own Dr. on this though.  Try to avoid excess sugar.  This is definitely a trigger for me.  Good luck-Nancy

Response:

I thought that Psoriasis becomes better at pregnancy. — Visit our site for Psoriasis cure: http://uvblamps.8m.com/ G.T.marketing  7 Hachavazelet street Jerusalem 94224 ISRAEL Internet sites: http://uvblamps.8m.com/ http://www.myfreeoffice.com/uvblamps/

Response:

>I thought that Psoriasis becomes better at pregnancy. >–

A common misconception gilteva.  Some women do clear upon conception, and some either develop PS or become much worse.  Same can be said about menopause; Pagano’s diet: I am living proof about the downside of Pagano’s program; UVB/UVA exposure: I clear quite nicely with UVB, and or sunlight exposure, however, my Dad must avoid sunlight as if it were the plague.  UVA doesn’t seem to have much affect on my PS one way or the other. The list can go on and on, but the one constant with PS (so-far) is that there is no constant.  We are all different, and it appears as though our remissions and flares are brought about by a myriad of different things.  IRV says it best in his patented succinct signature. "Irv —> in Alabama and don’t give up – ever!" >Visit our site for Psoriasis cure:

p.s. There is no cure! Cheers Tim http://hometown.aol.com/nesielheum/

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Question:

crunch

Response:

> >olive oil drops, a pizzico of rooms, pepper according >to the taste) watered with good you > … I’m pretty sure the last words are "white wine".  Wonder how the > robot missed that? >>                   gusto) annaffiata con buon vino >>                   bianco.

Literally: washed down ( the throat ) with a good white wine. That’s a real cure Oscar from Italy ( far from Nitrodi but near to a lot of other thermal waters wich never worked for me ).

Response:

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER POGANO PUSHER! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > There is an Island in Italy called Ischia and it has a place called Nitrodi > waters where peaople go for psoriasis cures. I have been there and if you stay > there for one month, the psoriasis will disappear.

Response:

>There is an Island in Italy called Ischia and it has a place called Nitrodi >waters where peaople go for psoriasis cures. I have been there and if you >stay >there for one month, the psoriasis will disappear.

TOGA! TOGA! TOGA! or was it TORA ! TORA ! TORA ! nevermind, I am hungry it tastes salty, like crunchg bits of sand

Response:

I made similar experience during a visit in a thermal resort called Terme di Saturnia in Tuscany (I’m Italian) but the water seems only to aid in the elimination of died skin cells. After some week P appered again. Bye.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There is an Island in Italy called Ischia and it has a place called Nitrodi > waters where peaople go for psoriasis cures. I have been there and if you stay > there for one month, the psoriasis will disappear.

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> these waters really do work, i know, have been there > in my opinion, if you combine one month in these waters with the followong, you > will probably clear, and stay that way permenantly: > go to nitrodi waters in italy for one month > and do following forever: > less carbs, and only complex > no refined carbs > no sugar > no junk > eat less food > limited juice fasting regularly (day per week) > take omega three’s > take lecithin > organic everything preferred > eat higher protein diet, but load up on vegies. you should eat mostly vegies > juice everyday, (moderate on carrots and beets cause too much sugar) > moderate fruits (1-2 per day) > clean the liver (milk thistle, etc) > detoxify > water water water > enemas or colonics fairly regularly > read and apply pagano’s book > relax > slowly get off or reduce meds

Really that’s a torture not a cure. Tortures are forbidden here in Italy. Oscar from Italy

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no i tell you i have been there and experienced dramatic healing. i spoke with indiginous there and they say it works for anyone who goes there and does it assiduously. diet is the way to do it long term though

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>olive oil drops, a pizzico of rooms, pepper according >to the taste) watered with good you

… I’m pretty sure the last words are "white wine".  Wonder how the robot missed that? Maybe if we translate it, that we should brush ourselves with cloves of garlic and water ourselves with a good white wine, we’d have something new. Never mind, Xan has given us a precise translation … takes all the fun out of it. <g> J. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->                   gusto) annaffiata con buon vino >                   bianco.

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> … I’m pretty sure the last words are "white wine".  Wonder how the > robot missed that?

The translations are a bit rough.  It’s really amusing if you translate something to a different language and than translate the result back to the original language. > Maybe if we translate it, that we should brush ourselves with cloves > of garlic and water ourselves with a good white wine, we’d have > something new.

This sounds like it’s worth a try although my wife would balk at using her garlic and wine this way. Andy Kanter

Response:

these waters really do work, i know, have been there in my opinion, if you combine one month in these waters with the followong, you will probably clear, and stay that way permenantly: go to nitrodi waters in italy for one month and do following forever: less carbs, and only complex no refined carbs no sugar no junk eat less food limited juice fasting regularly (day per week) take omega three’s take lecithin organic everything preferred eat higher protein diet, but load up on vegies. you should eat mostly vegies juice everyday, (moderate on carrots and beets cause too much sugar) moderate fruits (1-2 per day) clean the liver (milk thistle, etc) detoxify water water water enemas or colonics fairly regularly read and apply pagano’s book relax slowly get off or reduce meds you will probably heal completey with this protocol…but you may have to stick with it long term or it may come back

Response:

It translates as: "The thermal spring of Nitrodi is situated at Buonopane, one of the villages of the Barano area. Famous since Roman times (they believed that the Nitrodi Nymphs lived there) for it’s therapeutic and cosmetic properties the Nitrodi water gushes out at a constant temperature of 20*-22*C, even in winter.  The inhabitants of the island use the waters wisely to treat skin lesions, gastritis and ulcers.  The Nitrodi spring cures not only the wounds of the body but also those of the soul, because it is in a delightful landscape of vineyards and gently rolling hills with the sea and the promontory of Sant’Angelo in the backround.  Here it is possible to bathe, drink the waters or do both, with relaxing intervals perhaps tasting a bruschetta (slice of bread lightly toasted over a wood fire then rubbed with a clove of garlic and sprinkled with a little salt and/or pepper) washed down with a good white wine." I can vouch for the bruschetta and the wine, and probably for the landscape too as, although I have never been to Ischia, I lived for many years on the Island of Elba which is similar (but better, although Napoleon didn’t think so!), but I have to confess to serious doubts as to the efficacy of the waters  -  sounds too like an Italian tourist board blurb to be convincing! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> La sorgente termale di Nitrodi

Question:

>Anybody with a more technical explanation for this?  LadyAndy, >Dave?  Please….don’t leave me out here with a half-baked posting!

The explanations I’ve heard, and Lady Andy seems to have heard the same stuff, are no more baked than what you posted.  At this point, it’s all wild conjecture.  Not a lot is known about this, or starvation clearing, either, probably because it’s highly unethical to get people pregnant or to starve them in order to test a theory. Here’s another SWAG for you: perhaps women who experience pregnancy flaring (and as I understand it, this is much more rare than pregnancy clearing) are actually having proteins or other stuff from the foetus crossing the placenta into Mom’s bloodstream, and their immune systems mount a wide-spread response to that, which collaterally induces a flare-up.  Who knows? – Dave W.

Response:

Hi, I don’t know if this bears any relation, but for the 10 years I took the contraceptive pill, my P was clear.  It was there before and was there afterwards.  I was also clear during both pregnancies but after the second babe was born, developed PA and bad flare up of P. The Psoriasis was very troublesome for nearly eight years. Have been clear for 18 months now though. Debbie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anybody with a more technical explanation for this?  LadyAndy, >Dave?  Please….don’t leave me out here with a half-baked posting! >The explanations I’ve heard, and Lady Andy seems to have heard >the same stuff, are no more baked than what you posted.  At this >point, it’s all wild conjecture.  Not a lot is known about this, or >starvation clearing, either, probably because it’s highly unethical to >get people pregnant or to starve them in order to test a theory. >Here’s another SWAG for you: perhaps women who experience >pregnancy flaring (and as I understand it, this is much more rare >than pregnancy clearing) are actually having proteins or other stuff >from the foetus crossing the placenta into Mom’s bloodstream, and >their immune systems mount a wide-spread response to that, which >collaterally induces a flare-up.  Who knows? >- Dave W.

– carlo ricciardi

Response:

lets see- i am 33 and have had this for hmmm probably 3 years so i was 29–and have never gone to the docs for it yet–i dont like the idea of all those drugs which may have an effect or not or a bad one 0–my son will be 5 this winter am thinking of another child, but am worried about pregnancy with P….

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> lets see- i am 33 and have had this for hmmm probably 3 years so i was 29–and > have never gone to the docs for it yet–i dont like the idea of all those drugs > which may have an effect or not or a bad one 0–my son will be 5 this winter am > thinking of another child, but am worried about pregnancy with P….

  Hi, My name is Fran.  Only you can decide what to do re: pregnancy.  In my experience, I cleared when I was pregnant for my daughter and got worse when pregnant for my son.  Who knows.  Maybe the hormones do play a role.  Maybe not.  Don’t let the disease control you.  If you want another baby, go ahead girl.  Just don’t be on any meds while trying or during pregnancy unless authorized by a doctor.  Good luck.

Response:

My daughter’s psoriasis cleared when she was pregnat and didn’t come back.  Now she is pregnant again.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > lets see- i am 33 and have had this for hmmm probably 3 years so i was 29–and > have never gone to the docs for it yet–i dont like the idea of all those drugs > which may have an effect or not or a bad one 0–my son will be 5 this winter am > thinking of another child, but am worried about pregnancy with P….

Response:

>She is lucky, mine cleared mostly with pregnancy. Then came back worse than >before. Regardless, I still would like to have one more : )

Then you should, Jena! Nothing like having kids to love, especially when you’re my age. I wish I had a dozen instead of building a career after my two were grown. On the other hand, I would rather have my old company pay me a nice salary on Long Term Disability than take money from my kids……. I have heard (and as usual, I must say my explanation is simplistic) that during pregnancy, a hormone is produced that keeps women from rejecting the fetus. As we know, our bodies reject transplants and patients who have them must take immunosuppressant drugs to keep their bodies from destroying the new organ. Since our disease is due to a whacked out immune system that attacks its own body, it sounds reasonable that this hormone would keep the skin clear during pregnancy.  Which makes me wonder if this hormone is the same as cortisone or a steroid. On the other hand, many women post an increase in disease activity during pregnancy, but do not reject the fetus. Anybody with a more technical explanation for this?LadyAndy, Dave? Please….don’t leave me out here with a half-baked posting! Ava

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>Since our disease is due to a whacked out immune system that attacks its own >body, it sounds reasonable that this hormone would keep the skin clear during >pregnancy.  Which makes me wonder if this hormone is the same as cortisone or >a >steroid. >On the other hand, many women post an increase in disease activity during >pregnancy, but do not reject the fetus. >Anybody with a more technical explanation for this?LadyAndy, Dave? >Please….don’t leave me out here with a half-baked posting! >Ava

Hehehe… thanks, Ava.  I loved the humor.  And no, that wasn’t a half-baked posting.  :)   Many people with RA (rheumatoid arthritis) and PA (psoriatic arthritis) experience a remission of all symptoms during pregnancy.  It doesn’t happen with everybody, but it happens enough to be of great interest to physicians and researchers.  I don’t know about the skin condition psoriasis during pregnancy, but I would suspect it might be a similar reaction. And yes, best hypotheses seem to be that it is the hormonal balances in the body that change enough to allow a remission during pregnancy.  The bad news is, many of these same people will also experience a flaring of their disease after giving birth (a few months later).  In time, this flaring can be gotten under control, but it is a real concern for a new mom.   It is hardly practical to remain constantly pregnant in order to achieve a long remission, but then they still do not know the complete answer to why and how the hormones influence the disease.   Is it the immune system that is dampened in pregnancy?  Is it the hormones that help the woman’s bones to become more flexible, allowing for easier childbirth?  Is it that the body becomes "distracted" with the developing foetus, allowing a simmering down of our overactive skin cells and immune responses, similar to the way some people feel better in their arthritis symptoms while suffering from the flu? Sorry, I only have my own half-baked theories to propose myself.  :)  If we had the answer, maybe we would have the cure.  One day, may we have all the answers.   Best regards,

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>Hello everyone… >As an addendum to the above…i would also like to know if anyone has any >idea of >the general (broad) age group in which psoriasis is prevalent ? >I am 25….my PS started about 6 yrs ago…. >Flarey

My daughter is 13 and was diagnosed with psoriasis at age 8. Martha Anderson

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From what I’ve seen, most chronic illnesses affect women more than men, and most also begin after puberty. Like around 16. erin

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According to the National Psoriasis Foundation ( http://www.psoriasis.org/ ), both males and females get psoriasis in equal numbers.  Here is their statement from their FAQ: "Q: Who gets psoriasis? Both males and females get psoriasis in equal numbers. It can strike at any age, but most often between 15 and 35. However, a first-time diagnoses of psoriasis has been seen in very old people, and in new-born babies and small children. About 150,000 to 250,000 new cases of psoriasis are diagnosed each year. Select the following link to see some more psoriasis statistics. "   (this link is inactive when I copy it… to see the real deal, go to their website) I suspect the people who talk about it, who see the doctor about it, and who seek help from support groups and newsgroups may include a larger proportion of females, but that seems to be true of most health conditions.  You guys are all sooo tough.  :)  You hate to see the doc, right?   Best regards,

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From what I know about psoriasis in the UK (for which resources are extremely poor and difficult to obtain), the condition is very slightly more common in ladies than gentlemen. but only say 51% against 49%.  I first contracted this cursed condition when I was 13, after a series of tonsillitis bouts, followed by a huge bodily flare-up allergy to penicillin. After the penicillin allergy flared up, it only took about 4 days before this strange scaly stuff appeared as 2 small patches on my elbows, but before long spread like the plague, ensuring many sneers and hurtful comments directed my way as a pre-pubescent teenager, and immediately put paid to my popularity amongst teenage girls who suddenly started to see me as some disgusting creature from the swamp !!

> According to the National Psoriasis Foundation

( http://www.psoriasis.org/ ), – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> both males and females get psoriasis in equal numbers.  Here is their statement > from their FAQ: > "Q: Who gets psoriasis? > Both males and females get psoriasis in equal numbers. It can strike at any > age, but most often between 15 and 35. However, a first-time diagnoses of > psoriasis has been seen in very old people, and in new-born babies and small > children. About 150,000 to 250,000 new cases of psoriasis are diagnosed each > year. Select the following link to see some more psoriasis statistics. " > (this link is inactive when I copy it… to see the real deal, go to their > website) > I suspect the people who talk about it, who see the doctor about it, and who > seek help from support groups and newsgroups may include a larger proportion of > females, but that seems to be true of most health conditions.  You guys are all > sooo tough.  :)  You hate to see the doc, right? > Best regards,

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IMO: I think psoriasis is an equal opportunity disease.  Guys are supposed to just suck it up and not complain.  Some of the women I know who are affected are absolutely devestated, but seem to handle it after a while a bit better than the guys. Irv—>in Alabama

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> Hello everyone… > As an addendum to the above…i would also like to know if anyone has any > idea of > the general (broad) age group in which psoriasis is prevalent ? > I am 25….my PS started about 6 yrs ago…. > regards > Flarey

Yo Flarey, My P began when I was around 16. I don’t think there is any specific age group for P although there might be an age group when the P can get chronic and worse. Meanwhile how’z your P Vishy

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Started to notice something was really up at age 23 or 24. Prior to that I had what I thought was thick callus on feet, rough elbows, and very sensitive skin when shaving. My mom, her sister, and granny had psoriasis.  me & my first cousin (maternal side) are the only one of dozens of grandkids who were blessed with it.  About 5% coverage at its worst.  Now 47 years old if you "have" to know ;>) Jim.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello everyone… > As an addendum to the above…i would also like to know if anyone has any > idea of > the general (broad) age group in which psoriasis is prevalent ? > I am 25….my PS started about 6 yrs ago…. > regards > Flarey >Yo Flarey, >My P began when I was around 16. I don’t think there is any specific >age group for P although there might be an age group when the P can get >chronic and worse. >Meanwhile how’z your P >Vishy

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I realy don’t know if males or famales, I just want to advertise my Psoriasis Cure site: http://gtmarketing.hypermart.net Full of interesting articles

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>I realy don’t know if males or famales, >I just want to advertise my Psoriasis Cure site: >http://gtmarketing.hypermart.net >Full of interesting articles

You know advertising is not welcome in the Usenet Newsgroup alt.support.skin-diseases.psoriasis.  You also know that UVB and coal tar is not a cure for psoriasis, although they are very well-established and good treatments to reduce the symptoms. See also http://www.pinch.com/skin/pshame.html#gilteva and I sent a complaint to the ISP, anyway. – Dave W.

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Hello everyone…. I am just curious as to whether PS affects males or females more ?….i am sure if this query was addressed previously…someone will point it out… From what i am noticing…. more females seem to have PS… i am male… Just a thought… regards flarey

Response:

Hello everyone… As an addendum to the above…i would also like to know if anyone has any idea of the general (broad) age group in which psoriasis is prevalent ? I am 25….my PS started about 6 yrs ago…. regards Flarey

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Question:

>What does this mean?  It sounds to me like only 4% of psoriatics >are the only ones in their families with psoriasis.  Rare enough?  I >prefer to think of us as "elite loners."  :)

So I’m a rarity? I don’t mind being an "Elite Loner." Nice way to put it Dave! Sounds kind of important! LOL! Best Regards, Jo

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Well, what if you decide not to have children, and then 20 years down the road when you are too old to have children they find a cure!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a 22-year old friend whose father has P, and she also has P.  Now > she’s wondering if she should even think about getting married and having > kids.  She believes her parents should have considered that same question > before having her — because she lives with the same skin misery many others > of us do. > So here’s my question:  I’m not absolutely certain that psoriasis has been > proven to be hereditary, but if it is, do you think that people with > psoriasis should go ahead and have children? > In other words, based on your personal experiences, would you risk passing > on the disease/condition to your kids? > JohnnyM

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As a person with rather severe PS and PA, I do understand the question (or the thought behind the question.) I have two wonderful daughters and without them, my life would be over by now, probably ended by me on one of my terrible PA days. Of course I don’t regret having them, but I do live in abject terror of them getting this. Believe me, terror is not too strong a word, considering the pain. Not the look of it, not the inconvenience of it and not even the debilitating nature of it, but the thought of my "babies" being in pain like I am is horrifying to me. Would I choose not to have them if I knew then what I know now? I can’t answer that question. I really can’t. My selfish self says "Of course you would! But if I knew for sure (and therein lies the question) that they would get it, then my altruistic self would say "No. I would not knowingly let them suffer as I have just so I could have the pure joy of them in my life." I guess its just that I can take anything that life throws my way, and always have, but I don’t ever want them to have to deal with pain or suffering of any kind. What parent does? Much too heavy a response I suppose, especially since I didn’t really answer the question, but this subject led me to be very philosophical and melancholy. I am normally very upbeat and positive and optimistic!

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>They survived many years. >(at least I don’t think P can killya!)

Actually, although it is rare, Ps can occasionally kill.  If I remember the figures from the National Psoriasis Foundation, I believe about 400 people per year die of severe psoriasis.   I have communicated with some people who might be in this class, with extremely severe disease covering more than 90% of their body and making it very difficult to move, to regulate body temperature, to regulate bodily fluids, anything.  It makes me thankful my disease is not that severe or disabling. Best regards,

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My mum tells me that she knows of no one in the family that has P, but I have it and my children have it. Jell.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Interesting thought > my family have P but it skip’s generations therefore my children if and > when I have them won’t get P "Less likely too " > as about 5% of the population get P and of that 5% say 50% get very bad P > then it’s a little hard to blame somebody’s parents for having you. > There are so many other things that a child may get other than P , I feel > that not having children because of a small risk is a bit extreme. God > forbid they where disabled in any other way. > By the way I suffer from bad P and this is the first time I’ve visited this > NG . So far very interesting. > Martin > I have a 22-year old friend whose father has P, and she also has P.  Now > she’s wondering if she should even think about getting married and having > kids.  She believes her parents should have considered that same question > before having her — because she lives with the same skin misery many > others > of us do. > So here’s my question:  I’m not absolutely certain that psoriasis has > been > proven to be hereditary, but if it is, do you think that people with > psoriasis should go ahead and have children? > In other words, based on your personal experiences, would you risk > passing > on the disease/condition to your kids? > JohnnyM

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Check to see if your relatives cousins uncles aunts have or had it ? Have you got Psoriasis or is it a skin condition with similar markings? Why do we assume Psoriasis is genetic? I once suffered from Asthma but no one in my immediate or relative family had it.The medics say thats genetic. I have had people suggesting that in some cases where parents have taken certain medication to cure illness this could have sparked an allergy towards Asthma. This could be quite possible with Psoriasis.. Happy Living… Geoff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Noone in my family has/had psoriasis either….Is this rare? How many of you > have it in your family? >Nobody in my family history has psoriasis….. I am the only one.. How >in the world did this happen?

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>Why do we assume Psoriasis is genetic?

We don’t assume.  There’s been quite a bit of research into the subject.  Take a look at my other post on this. > I once suffered from Asthma but no one in my immediate or relative > family had it.The medics say thats genetic.

Basic genetics teaches us that spontaneous mutations happen all the time.  Could be the reason for your asthma and our one-person-in-the-family-with-psoriasis stuff.  I doubt it happens quite so *often*, but it could explain a few cases. – Dave W.

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>By the way I suffer from bad P and this is the first time I’ve visited this >NG . So far very interesting.

It can only become more so with all these new people coming out of the bushes! Welcome to the group, Martin.  Now keep on posting. Best regards,

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P  dates way back in my  family all the way back to my great grand mother. I have it.My mother has it my step brother,my sister  and my grand mother  and lastly my 16 y/o niece.I have it the worst out of everyone..Jerry http://home.talkcity.com/BasinSt/crawfish444/ Jerry Strahan Springhill,La. Private Investigator-Student here on the Bayou.Laissez les bons temps rouler dans louisiane ! I am in black t-shirt in the picture   "L

Question:

Well, I think , it’s time for summary. I confess, I’m new for such posting exchange.  I hardly understand such negative reaction and disbelief from some of you.  I don’t want to mention a lot of peculiar titles I got, but I’m not a liar, an intriguer, etc.  Here is quotes:  "Better to be occasionally cheated than perpetually suspisious" -B. C. Forbes.  I fairly told you about the ointment that helped me to get rid of lesions and patches covering about 50% of my body.  Good luck to all of you and I always glad to hear from you.  My Sincerely,  -shayn — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

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>Here is quotes:  "Better to be occasionally cheated >than perpetually suspisious" -B. C. Forbes.

but with CURES for psoriasis  it becomes: "Better to be cheated each and every time without failure, than to be perpetually suspicious" I am sure some would still agree with the restatement above. I think the quote was about being suspicious of EVERYTHING in life.  Here we mainly are concerned with psoriasis CURES that don’t work and make everyone poorer but one.

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Question:

> Try:  http://www.anagramgenius.com/server.html > Best regards,

Huh! Merthyr’s a real town. If Ed’s stayver had been longer I could have shown it to him…

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>> I’m groping for an anagram of "Merthyr Tydfil", and its not going well. > Help, Ed – I been hyp-mo-tized (D. Letterman). >Heh. If you have some idle time, how about, "trim the dry fly." >– Ed "ed try, mirth fly" Anderson

now, now , don’t get your hackles up !

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"You people?" Tsk tsk – manners… >I apolgise. I do get het up sometimes when I see illogical behaviour…

"A new cure"? But I was so happy with the old one… >This is a puerile comment which is not constructive.

Yep – I’ve got nothing better to do this morning (no good cartoons on right now). >I’m glad. Humour is great for the immune system. You haven’t got enough yet,

though! Jeez, that’s Ed – goes around basing all his *presumptions* on fact. Don’t ya just hate that?? >YOU DO NOT KNOW THERE IS NO CURE. YOU ONLY KNOW THAT YOU DON’T KNOW OF ONE,

YET. Is the world flat or something? Are you asking Ed or the group? If you’re asking the group then no, I don’t think it is more effective for group readers to try your product and post their results. >I’m asking the group.

I think it is wrong to encourage people to use some *cure* whose ingredients you refuse to divulge. >I do not refuse to provide them. I have asked for authorisation in the mean

time an I await reponse from the proprietors. To expect free advertising on top of that is ridiculous. >So you don’t think that if something works to stop this suffering, it should be

made public? I shall read your links later. Right now, I feel it is appropriate to respond as I have. >I’m sure I can decide how I wish to behave. Thanks for the lesson, I shall bear

it in mind. That’s the ticket! Post now – do the research later…

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Thanks! But I am offering you to try it out COMPLETELY FREE, or keep your problem. Which will you choose, a solution now or one when it will cost you some, at some time in the future?

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Thank you. You have the right attitude, whether you agree more or less, what matters is that people are willing to reason and not just spit out sentences. The offer is SINCERE and FREE OF CHARGE. What more can we do to show good faith?

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>> I’m groping for an anagram of "Merthyr Tydfil", and its not going well. > Help, Ed – I been hyp-mo-tized (D. Letterman). >Heh. If you have some idle time, how about, "trim the dry fly." >– Ed "ed try, mirth fly" Anderson

Or how about: Filthy try Mr Ed — Tim "Red flirty myth" Wren replace nospam with UK to e-mail

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> I’m groping for an anagram of "Merthyr Tydfil", and its not going well. > Help, Ed – I been hyp-mo-tized (D. Letterman).

Heh. If you have some idle time, how about, "trim the dry fly." — Ed "ed try, mirth fly" Anderson

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> > As the inimitable Paul L. Allen once wrote, FYATHYRIO > hmm. Welsh. Small town just outside Merthyr Tydfil. Full of cowboy movie > fans – and scared sheep.

Sheep may safely graze (J. S. Bach, I think). I’m groping for an anagram of "Merthyr Tydfil", and its not going well. Help, Ed – I been hyp-mo-tized (D. Letterman).

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>I’m groping for an >anagram of "Merthyr Tydfil", and its not going well.

Try:  http://www.anagramgenius.com/server.html Best regards,

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It totally amazes me that anyone can call themselves a Dr. and have an attitude like this!! > Dr. Benzon Levy said: >I wonder if you people WANT a cure or just want to keep talking about one? >How >can a discussion group exist if there no object to it.

Do we want a cure?????? No …. we are all just spending our days reading and posting on here for the hell of it…. Most of us have just undergone months and years of trying everything from slathering our bodies with every known ( and unknown ) product on the market to hopping on one foot while chanting a mantra to get some relief from this horrible disease …. and a so called Dr. has the audacity to ask if we really want a cure???? > Gee, and it looks to me like we’re all discussing something right > now. >I see resentment in your post which would dissolve like the psoriatic scales >after this treatment if you were to open up and actually trying to >investigate >it before making ANY comment. > How can we possibly investigate it since you post *zero* details?

Exactly !!!! and even after making this comment, where are the details?  Still non existent. >I did not state anywhere that this was a drug, nor that I was proposing a >drug >trial. I merely offer any UK sufferer of psoriasis the possibility to try a >new >cure that was proven to work in Israel…

There is that word "cure" again… Get real "Dr." there is NO cure for psoriasis. We all know that. But if you or anyone else out there has a new effective treatment and you instead of supplying the full details, continue to banter back and forth about your right to post what you wish on this news group, then you are doing not only the medical profession but also all of us who suffer with psoriasis a terrible disservice. > Well, I don’t know how things work in the UK or Israel, but in > the U.S., most treatments that cure some disease or other require > a prescription from a doctor.  And most things that require > prescriptions are drugs.  So, Ed was probably just going with > the odds that you’ve got a drug. >I don’t remember any request not to post messages in this free and democratic >newsgroup full of people wanting to solve a problem for which I KNOW there is >a >solution and wish to share with you. > Then SHARE it, fercryingoutloud.  Why all the secrecy?

I will second the motion !!!! By all means "Dr." if you have a solution then share it !!  Tell us what it is and what is in it and what any and all side effects are!  We certainly have that right to know before we spend our time, our money, and risk our health on anything that you are offering. >I cannot disclose the ingredients as they are not mine to disclose, the >results >of treatment are available for viewing by any party wishing to view them and >that has an interest in solving their problem once and for all. They just >have >to ask. > I’m asking.

Well …. we saw where asking got you …. how ’bout if I ask???  I would like to see you post the results AND the ingredients.  That is crap you saying the ingredients are not yours to post!!  You are asking us to have confidence in what you are trying to "sell" us on, but you don’t want to tell us what is in it??? I don’t think so …… >Here you presume that there IS no cure and you make judgements about the >person >posting without even knowing who he is let alone knowing the person. Is that >dishonest or very dishonest behaviour?

No … dishonest behavior is what you are exhibiting.  You are not responding to the questions that are being asked of you.  If you want to pedal your so called product without disclosing information then I think this is the wrong place to be doing it. > No, it’s not dishonest.  It’s prudent.  You’ve given us zero information > on who you are.  How are we supposed to know that ‘Hypnos!’ or > ‘cashers99′ is really Dr. Benzon Levy?  How are we supposed to > know there really is a Dr. Benzon Levy?  How are we supposed > to know that Dr. Benzon Levy is a physician, and not a podiatrist? > Etc., etc..  You come knocking at our door, and we’re supposed to > assume that you’re good-hearted Dr. Levy, and not some maniacal > serial killer?  How presumptuous of you. >I am also able to read a dictionary and my own qualifications also allow me >to make the distinction. Do yours? > And what are your qualifications?

I’m sorry …. I must have missed something here??  I believe you were asked for your qualifications?   But I don’t seem to see them posted here?  Instead just more of your rhetoric…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You see within the next 5 years the official clinical >research will come out and 5 years of misery would have been lived by all >those that were waiting for it. > So, you are a doctor willing to treat people prior to the completion > of the clinical trials?  I’m sure that in many places that is unethical > and illegal.  I’m sure that many researchers face the same problem > of wanting to get a treatment out before the higher-ups say that it’s > OK to do so, but most of them, I’m also sure, realize that the need > for clinical proof of efficacy and non-disastrous side-effects > outweigh the inconvenience, misery, or even death of those who > are unable to get the treatment due to the testing. >I don’t think I need to convince you or anyone, you seem to need >to convince yourself. Howabout trying out the method? A good way >to do so, don’t you think?

Again you are asking someone to try out a method of so called treatment without posting information.  How desperate do you think we really are???? > No, it’s not.  That’s why there are clinical trials going on, remember? > Try looking up ‘the scientific method’ in that dictionary of yours. >I believe in what I say, and have good reason to do so.

Great!  I hope any Dr. I see believes in what he says … but I expect him to be able to inform me so that I can believe also in what he is asking me to take.  I learned a long time ago that just because a Dr. says " here, take this" it is not always a good thing to do so.  I want the information for myself so I can make an informed decision. > Why should we believe in what you say (see ‘prudence’ > response, above). >If a few small minded ignorant people who want to >make their lives and those of others a misery wish to ridicule, then it >is their choice to do so. The intelligent ones might just listen up and >try out the method, it’s free after all, and then decide who to ridicule >afterwards.

Well …. I tend to think that because some of us are not leaping off tall buildings to get a chance to try your treatment without you giving us the information that you need then WE are the intelligent ones and you it seems have fallen into the category of "small minded" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ahhhh.  Now the insults come out.  Great bedside manner you’ve > got there, doc.  Hey, the mushrooms growing in the forest are free, > too, but I’m intelligent enough to know not to eat the red ones.  You > haven’t even told us what color your treatment is, yet you expect us > to make intelligent decisions about it? >Thanks for your opinion. The world is great because opinions do >not shape destiny, action and facts do. > Once again ….. no information given .. only more insults…..God .. please > remind me to always stay far and away from any so called "Dr.Benzon Levy"…. > To be cliche, what planet do you live on?  Public relations people > make fortunes simply because opinions *do* shape destiny. >HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON? > I do.

I not only agree with Mr. Anderson, I would like to thank him for being on target enough to weed out the "Dr." Levy’s of this news group. >PLEASE POST YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD >SO THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT EXACTLY >IS BEING OFFERED AND HOW WE ALL PERCEIVE THIS >iSSUE. > I *really* do want to know what is being offered.  And it’s > interesting that you want to know how this issue is being > perceived, since you just said that opinions don’t matter. > – Dave W. (writing from home, anyone wishing to reply via email, > home very often.  I hope AOL plays nice with this post…)

Carla

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>snipped< >HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON? >snipped<

Oh, I do, and that you should pose such a question shows just how much you’ve misconceived your reputation in this newsgroup compared with Ed’s. By the way, are the positive responses to your supposed e-mail address still pouring in?  Or are your correspondents still getting this reply: SMTP error from remote mailer after end of data:     host mta-x1.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.117]:     551 qdirdel error 100: account has been disabled or discontinued. — Tim Wren replace nospam with UK to e-mail

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> As the inimitable Paul L. Allen once wrote, FYATHYRIO

hmm. Welsh. Small town just outside Merthyr Tydfil. Full of cowboy movie fans – and scared sheep.

Response:

I’m astonished to find this thread, and everyone’s passionate responses. I definitely felt misty reading them, with a sense of community that I thought might have dissipated. I can’t believe the doctor’s bad judgement in responding to my private email with such a public retaliation. While I was very critical, I did not mock, or claim he was being dishonest, and I invited the researcher to show evidence of his good intent. His defensive response tells volumes. >Some of us take the issue very seriously. This is a DISCUSSION group, not >a venue for advertising, promotion, or recruitment. > I wonder if you people WANT a cure or just want to keep talking about one? How > can a discussion group exist if there no object to it.

You are apparently still unclear on the concept of a discussion group. The object is mutual support, not marketing a mystery "definitive cure." We do this through the open exchange of information and experience. > I see resentment in your post which would dissolve like the psoriatic scales > after this treatment if you were to open up and actually trying to investigate > it before making ANY comment.

My private email was an investigation of sorts. I also researched all previous posts by Hypnos! and found mostly disruptive psychobabble: http://www.pinch.com/skinny?dejall=~a+hypnos! If you’re going to recruit for a legitmate medical study, I recommend that you choose a more credible persona. I think I was pretty charitable given some of the MLM promotions posted from your "friend’s" account:  "Online course teaches you how to use a NEW subliminal hypnosis technique   (NOT NLP) to gain fascination power over anybody. You can use this to   increase/improve your sales/recruitment, the quality of your sex life or   for self control (treating insomnia, premature ejaculation, frigidity,   quitting smoking, following diets etc.)" > If the test is going to be in the UK it is only > logical for UK residents or the like to contact us. I would NEVER refuse a > contact anywhere on earth, but I wouldn’t want to work up anybody’s expectations > if they’d have to cross the world to try out the method.

You are posting to a global newsgroup. There are methods of restricting the distribution to the UK, but I won’t bother explaining the details. Regardless, your preemptive exclusion comes off as arrogant. >If this were a SERIOUS, legitimate drug trial, you would acknowledge the > consensus of the group, and our request that we not be submitted to your ads. > I did not state anywhere that this was a drug, nor that I was proposing a drug > trial.

Had you folloed the links I gave BEFORE you posted, you would be aware of the legal definitions. In the US, which is working with the EU to have compatible regulations, any therapeutic claims, such as modifying the state of a disease, throw it into the class of a medical drug or device. By saying you have a cure, that makes it a drug. Nutritional supplement promoters aren’t allowed to make unsubstantiated claims. Cosmetics don’t modify the body. ALL such products must conform to drug labeling code, which requires an accurate ingredient list. > I merely offer any UK sufferer of psoriasis the possibility to try a new > cure that was proven to work in Israel (and unless Israeli resident humans are > different to UK resident ones, it should work here too). AND I OFFER IT FREE OF > CHARGE, AT NO COST AND WITHOUT OBLIGATION. I don’t remember having read any > objections to my POST. I have not placed any ADs and it is dishonest of you to > imply this.

Your previous posts have been ridiculed. I tried to privately explain why. You are recruiting with advertisements. They have been broadcast in the sense that you have ignored, and as you just confirmed, are completely unaware of the public response. >Perhaps if you made a full disclosure about the exact ingredients you are >testing, and the preliminary results that have obtained, you might be taken >seriously. > I cannot disclose the ingredients as they are not mine to disclose, the results > of treatment are available for viewing by any party wishing to view them and > that has an interest in solving their problem once and for all. They just have > to ask.

Any legitimate trial demands a full disclosure of the ingredients and potential side effects as part of the signed consent form. There are many precedents for this. If you aren’t getting INFORMED consent, then you are illegally conducting experiments on humans. No doubt you will find willing subjects, but there are very strict international codes that prevent such fraudulent misconduct. As a doctor, you must have been trained in the ethics of medical experiments. If you need a refresher course, here’s the foundation of modern trials:  http://plague.law.umkc.edu/Xfiles/x354.htm As callous as you might think it is to even mention it, that code is referred to whenever there is a legal question of medical trial ethics. >As it is, you use all the keywords that are the mark of an opportunist. Through >all history, every claim of having a psoriasis cure has been shown to be > either excessive hype, or a fraud. > There are surreptitious inferences which you draw and then divulge.

I’m afraid something got lost in the translation. Please be more explicit. Do I need to rephrase? I am saying that until you actually provide concrete evidence that you have the "definitive cure" for psoriasis, then your claims must either be categorized as excessive hype, or fraud. >You haven’t given enough information for us to decide which one. > Here you presume that there IS no cure and you make judgements about the person > posting without even knowing who he is let alone knowing the person. Is that > dishonest or very dishonest behaviour?

If you’ll reread what I wrote, I was alerting you to exactly why you *appear* to be an opportunist. I hoped you might provide some evidence that you’re not. I catch your point about leaving only such poor choices, but I don’t think I was being dishonest at all. I was being charitably honest and frank, given the past promotions by Hypnos. >No legitimate researcher would ever make the claims you are making, without > solid proof. > Who says I don’t have it?

OK, now you’re playing semantics. Make that PROVIDING solid evidence. The burden is upon you to back up your claims. >A Cure means total, permanent, remission from the disease. > I am also able to read a dictionary and my own qualifications also allow me to > make the distinction. Do yours?

My qualifications are not at issue. They are sufficient to point out the obvious problems with your medical and social ethics. > I shall get some more info to the newsgroup if you want me post the AD, but I > think it rather more effective when newsgroup readers try it out and report > results. Don’t you?

More effective at what? Only product promotion. Controlled trials are required to eliminate placebo effects and evaluation bias. Your comments show just how unprofessional your approach is in a medical context. > You see within the next 5 years the official clinical research will > come out and 5 years of misery would have been lived by all those > that were waiting for it.

So you’re really just trying to save us from the misery of knowing that there’s a secret unattainable cure, by announcing it and generating testimonials for Hypnos glop? I don’t believe the premise. >Sending it as private email would be pointless. Convincing just me won’t > restore your credibility. More public hype will only bring more ridicule. > I don’t think I need to convince you or anyone, you seem to need to convince > yourself. Howabout trying out the method? A good way to do so, don’t you think?

You’ve already ruled out anyone outside the UK, and I prefer to know what I’m subjecting myself to. We only have your judgement that the product is safe and contains no drugs. In my opinion, your judgement has been incredibly poor in almost every regard. Until you are conducting an ethical experiment, I decline. > I believe in what I say, and have good reason to do so. If a few small minded > ignorant people who want to make their lives and those of others a misery wish > to ridicule, then it is their choice to do so. The intelligent ones might just > listen up and try out the method, it’s free after all, and then decide who to > ridicule afterwards.

There are true believers everywhere, using arguments similar to yours. Calling us all stupid for not accepting your offer is not going to win you many allies, especially since you’ve rejected over 95% of your audience. >Any legitimate researchers would identify themselves, "cashers." > Are you saying that a "legitimate researcher" refers to himself as a "casher"? > How odd! What does this mean? > Dr. Benzon Levy > Ramle, Israel

No. The comma separates the statement from your pseudonym, "Dr. Levy." > HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON? PLEASE POST YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD > SO THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING OFFERED AND HOW WE ALL > PERCEIVE THIS iSSUE.

So far, I see unanimous agreement in the way you are perceived, and there is still no way of knowing exactly what is offered. Perhaps a formal inquiry to the Israeli Ministry of Health is in order. I’m beginning to wonder whether Israel has different standards than the rest of the world, given the recent string of misleading promotions. I suggest that you go to your sponsor and explain the situation. If they’re going into the pharmaceutical market, they should be aware of the need for full disclosure. — Ed "claiming an exemption to Godwins Law of Usenet debate" Anderson

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> HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON? PLEASE POST YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD > SO THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING OFFERED AND HOW WE ALL > PERCEIVE THIS iSSUE.

I agree that a support newsgroup (such as this one) is not the place for advertisements and scams. If you are legit, then accept this apology. Far too many con artists come here to push their snake oils and creme "cures" on us. It is wise to be cautious and without more information on your treatment, I would feel compelled to dismiss you as yet another profiteer. Shannon

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Not only do I agree with Ed Anderson’s analysis of your post, but I shall join in the many who *will* report you to your ISP (or your "friend" will get reported) if you post ad’s here.  And yes, solicitation of people for the purpose of setting up testimonials as part of your marketing is advertising in my book, not scientific research. IF you are a doctor of medicine, you know already how to set up and verify a valid clinical trial and publish the repeatable results in the appropriate journals for peer review.  DO THAT FIRST AND THEN WE CAN LOOK OVER THESE RESULTS AND MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.   Until then, take your so-called "cure" and stuff it.   LadyAndy2 (why do these guys never have their own Internet access?  Could it be they’ve lost their accounts?  Sheesh, it isn’t that hard to open your own account!)

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Ed Anderson, Lady Andy 2, and so many others take the words right out of my mouth when they respond to people coming here to sell stuff. I’m so glad we have the more experienced posters who have seen the result of shameless hucksters, hawking their CURES here.  You folks are the voice of experience; you do your research; and you take your lumps from  the RAY SANTAMARTAS, the Ken Kesslers, the FARMACOPIAS, the HYPNOSTHERAPISTS, etc. ad nauseum.  (hope I haven’t missed any ) A belated thank you to all of you for keeping on top of this.  You all make this group the intelligent and informative place that it is today. Jim.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Not only do I agree with Ed Anderson’s analysis of your post, but I shall join >in the many who *will* report you to your ISP (or your "friend" will get >reported) if you post ad’s here.  And yes, solicitation of people for the >purpose of setting up testimonials as part of your marketing is advertising in >my book, not scientific research. >IF you are a doctor of medicine, you know already how to set up and verify a >valid clinical trial and publish the repeatable results in the appropriate >journals for peer review.  DO THAT FIRST AND THEN WE CAN LOOK OVER THESE >RESULTS AND MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION. >Until then, take your so-called "cure" and stuff it. >LadyAndy2 >(why do these guys never have their own Internet access?  Could it be they’ve >lost their accounts?  Sheesh, it isn’t that hard to open your own account!)

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–big snip– > Thanks for your opinion. The world is great because opinions do not shape > destiny, action and facts do. I shall read your links later. Right now, I feel > it is appropriate to respond as I have. >Here’s a couple of documents for you to read BEFORE responding: > http://www.pinch.com/skin/guide.html > http://www.pinch.com/skin/pshame.html > — Ed Anderson  keeper of the group archive > HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON? PLEASE POST YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD > SO THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING OFFERED AND HOW WE ALL > PERCEIVE THIS iSSUE.

Its hard to add to the already great comments from Lindashm, Steve Cassidy, LadyAndy and others. These are people I respect enough (along with Ed) that if they all agree on damn near anything, I probably will too. I certainly do in this case. How is this helping me understand what exactly is being offered? One point leaps out at me – this is called a "test" of a "cure that was proven to work". Why bother to test further? How much more testing before I get to experience the cure out here in the backwoods of California? And, calm down, Doc – shouting at us ("you people") isn’t good for you. Cheer, Jerry

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Dear Group, I don’t think there is one of us here who wouldn’t LEAP across the Grand Canyon, and flap our arms like eagles,  if someone even hinted that there was a Psoriasis cure on the other side. But then…don’t these kind fellows know just that. There are researchers and drug companies out there who prey on desperate, DESPERATE people who suffer day in, day out…in constant PAIN! Who? US! That’s who! These people know we’ll fork over a thousand bucks as easily as breathing if there’s even an eighth of a chance of stopping this constant misery we know of as our everyday lives. And to make this as short and sweet as possible…I’d rather let a mule kick me in the nuts, and flush the rest of my money than to be someone’s test subject…for nothing!!!     Take your false promises, your hokum, and sell it somewhere else!!!! People have gathered here to discuss a condition we all share, so that we may find some dear solace in all this misery. Don’t DARE to presume that this is a forum for selling your mystery snake oil in the jar marked X. If you would like to inform people of your product and its CONTENTS, along with the side-effects, short and LONG TERM, its successes and failures…here’s a clue…post a web site. But don’t try to recruit some poor lost soul for your own financial ends. I don’t know about everyone else, but I feel lousy enough without someone coming along, giving false promises…false…hope…only to pull the rug out from under me because I was so desperate to start with.     We’ve all seen it before. Something is NOT better than nothing…if it’s all bogus to begin with. If it’s not…then prove it researcher friend. Prove it to all us psoriatics out there…we’re the toughest audience around. Why? Because we suffer with it…not you. Oh…and if I didn’t say so before. You go Ed!!! Slightly pissed, Joe-

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What ever happened to "A cure for the good of mankind".  I love humanitarianism don’t you???? Who the heck is this guy any way???? Lou…

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–snip– > I don’t remember any request not to post messages in this free and democratic > newsgroup full of people wanting to solve a problem for which I KNOW there is a > solution and wish to share with you.

–snip– I can’t take it any more. This is my second reply to the same BS post. Please take this as an official, public, from me, "request not to post messages in this free and democratic newsgroup full of people wanting to solve a problem for which I KNOW there is a solution and wish to share with you". Share it or shut up. As the inimitable Paul L. Allen once wrote, FYATHYRIO. As I remember, that acronym was first decoded publicly by Kim Malo… Yes, I’m trying to lure you into the archive. Lacking Cheer at this moment, Jerry

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Dr. Benzon Levy said: >I wonder if you people WANT a cure or just want to keep talking about one? >How >can a discussion group exist if there no object to it.

Gee, and it looks to me like we’re all discussing something right now. >I see resentment in your post which would dissolve like the psoriatic scales >after this treatment if you were to open up and actually trying to >investigate >it before making ANY comment.

How can we possibly investigate it since you post *zero* details? >I did not state anywhere that this was a drug, nor that I was proposing a >drug >trial. I merely offer any UK sufferer of psoriasis the possibility to try a >new >cure that was proven to work in Israel…

Well, I don’t know how things work in the UK or Israel, but in the U.S., most treatments that cure some disease or other require a prescription from a doctor.  And most things that require prescriptions are drugs.  So, Ed was probably just going with the odds that you’ve got a drug. >I don’t remember any request not to post messages in this free and democratic >newsgroup full of people wanting to solve a problem for which I KNOW there is >a >solution and wish to share with you.

Then SHARE it, fercryingoutloud.  Why all the secrecy? >I cannot disclose the ingredients as they are not mine to disclose, the >results >of treatment are available for viewing by any party wishing to view them and >that has an interest in solving their problem once and for all. They just >have >to ask.

I’m asking. >Here you presume that there IS no cure and you make judgements about the >person >posting without even knowing who he is let alone knowing the person. Is that >dishonest or very dishonest behaviour?

No, it’s not dishonest.  It’s prudent.  You’ve given us zero information on who you are.  How are we supposed to know that ‘Hypnos!’ or ‘cashers99′ is really Dr. Benzon Levy?  How are we supposed to know there really is a Dr. Benzon Levy?  How are we supposed to know that Dr. Benzon Levy is a physician, and not a podiatrist? Etc., etc..  You come knocking at our door, and we’re supposed to assume that you’re good-hearted Dr. Levy, and not some maniacal serial killer?  How presumptuous of you. >I am also able to read a dictionary and my own qualifications also allow me >to make the distinction. Do yours?

And what are your qualifications? > You see within the next 5 years the official clinical >research will come out and 5 years of misery would have been lived by all >those that were waiting for it.

So, you are a doctor willing to treat people prior to the completion of the clinical trials?  I’m sure that in many places that is unethical and illegal.  I’m sure that many researchers face the same problem of wanting to get a treatment out before the higher-ups say that it’s OK to do so, but most of them, I’m also sure, realize that the need for clinical proof of efficacy and non-disastrous side-effects outweigh the inconvenience, misery, or even death of those who are unable to get the treatment due to the testing. >I don’t think I need to convince you or anyone, you seem to need >to convince yourself. Howabout trying out the method? A good way >to do so, don’t you think?

No, it’s not.  That’s why there are clinical trials going on, remember? Try looking up ‘the scientific method’ in that dictionary of yours. >I believe in what I say, and have good reason to do so.

Why should we believe in what you say (see ‘prudence’ response, above). >If a few small minded ignorant people who want to >make their lives and those of others a misery wish to ridicule, then it >is their choice to do so. The intelligent ones might just listen up and >try out the method, it’s free after all, and then decide who to ridicule >afterwards.

Ahhhh.  Now the insults come out.  Great bedside manner you’ve got there, doc.  Hey, the mushrooms growing in the forest are free, too, but I’m intelligent enough to know not to eat the red ones.  You haven’t even told us what color your treatment is, yet you expect us to make intelligent decisions about it? >Thanks for your opinion. The world is great because opinions do >not shape destiny, action and facts do.

To be cliche, what planet do you live on?  Public relations people make fortunes simply because opinions *do* shape destiny. >HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON?

I do. >PLEASE POST YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD >SO THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT EXACTLY >IS BEING OFFERED AND HOW WE ALL PERCEIVE THIS >iSSUE.

I *really* do want to know what is being offered.  And it’s interesting that you want to know how this issue is being perceived, since you just said that opinions don’t matter. – Dave W. (writing from home, anyone wishing to reply via email, home very often.  I hope AOL plays nice with this post…)

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> HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON? PLEASE POST YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD > SO THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING OFFERED AND HOW WE ALL > PERCEIVE THIS iSSUE.

I have a cure, but I can’t tell you anything about it.  Trust me!! Well, I have a solution for all your financial problems, Benzon.  Send me all your money and I will take real good care of it for you. Promise!! Dan

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> I cannot disclose the ingredients as they are not mine to disclose

If you cannot disclose the ingredients then you cannot expect people to agree to the trial, or to respond well to your postings. Undisclosed ingredients are a marketing ploy for you, but they are something that the users may have to live with for the rest of their lives. >  Is that dishonest or very dishonest behaviour?

It doesn’t even rate a blip on the chart which must also accommodate the dishonesty of people (whether you, or those you represent) who won’t own up to what’s in their medicine. > You see within the next 5 years the official clinical > research will come out and 5 years of misery would have been lived by > all those > that were waiting for it.

One of the absolute fundamental requirements of a clinical trial with a view to prescription or OTK release is that the proposers and makers of the drug DO NOT JUMP THE GUN in selling or promoting their drug to sufferers before the trial results are in. To do so is criminally irresponsible; all the people I know in that sector react to the idea with a deeply ingrained horror to the very idea of gun-jumping. therefore: a) you are lying about a clinical trial b) you don’t care what’s in your ‘cure’ c) you are seeking to circumvent awkward regulations, especially the ones which appply in the UK to things like a B.P. rating or NHS purchasing. If you have a shred of credibility or personal decency, I suggest you convince somewhere like the Alternative Health Centre, or Neal’s Yard, or one of the other static, physically accessible and reputable health centres to take on the work of giving away the free samples, and advertise that here. If for some strange reson you only want to target people in this newsgroup, then we will learn another interesting fact about your marketing technique. > Are you saying that a "legitimate researcher" refers to himself as a > "casher"? > How odd! What does this mean?

deal like a return address for one of those tired old pyramid marketing scams. If you can’t work out that this is your responder address, then I agree with you, it is *very* odd. I suspect you’ve just jumped on the get rich quick bandwagon and don’t quite know how to use the technology yet. Oh; and why are you offering to people in the UK if you are in Israel?

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>HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON? PLEASE POST YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS >THREAD >SO THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING OFFERED AND HOW WE ALL >PERCEIVE THIS iSSUE.

Could you please repeat that? And speak up this time, I didn’t quite catch it. Hypnos – I’m quoting out of order since you (although it was addressed to Ed A.) solicited opinions from others at the end of your post. >I wonder if you people WANT a cure or just want to keep talking about one?

"You people?" Tsk tsk – manners… > I merely offer any UK sufferer of psoriasis the possibility to try a new >cure that was proven to work in Israel

"A new cure"? But I was so happy with the old one… [Ed said]: >Since you have ignored that, you should expect to be mocked,

Yep – I’ve got nothing better to do this morning (no good cartoons on right now). >I cannot disclose the ingredients as they are not mine to disclose,

Ahhh, now it becomes clear… >Here you presume that there IS no cure

Jeez, that’s Ed – goes around basing all his *presumptions* on fact. Don’t ya just hate that?? >I shall get some more info to the newsgroup if you want me post the AD, but I >think it rather more effective when newsgroup readers try it out and report >results. Don’t you?

Are you asking Ed or the group? If you’re asking the group then no, I don’t think it is more effective for group readers to try your product and post their results. I think it is wrong to encourage people to use some *cure* whose ingredients you refuse to divulge. To expect free advertising on top of that is ridiculous. >I shall read your links later. Right now, I feel >it is appropriate to respond as I have.

That’s the ticket! Post now – do the research later… Oh yes. In answer to your question ("How many of you agree with Mr. Anderson?"), please count me in agreement with him. -Linda

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>Some of us take the issue very seriously. This is a DISCUSSION group, not

a venue for advertising, promotion, or recruitment. I wonder if you people WANT a cure or just want to keep talking about one? How can a discussion group exist if there no object to it. >You pop in, claim to have a CURE, say you’re willing to try it on a few select

people, and proceed to make posts to preemptively exclude people from bothering you because they don’t fit your locale or profile. I see resentment in your post which would dissolve like the psoriatic scales after this treatment if you were to open up and actually trying to investigate it before making ANY comment. If the test is going to be in the UK it is only logical for UK residents or the like to contact us. I would NEVER refuse a contact anywhere on earth, but I wouldn’t want to work up anybody’s expectations if they’d have to cross the world to try out the method. >If this were a SERIOUS, legitimate drug trial, you would acknowledge the

consensus of the group, and our request that we not be submitted to your ads. I did not state anywhere that this was a drug, nor that I was proposing a drug trial. I merely offer any UK sufferer of psoriasis the possibility to try a new cure that was proven to work in Israel (and unless Israeli resident humans are different to UK resident ones, it should work here too). AND I OFFER IT FREE OF CHARGE, AT NO COST AND WITHOUT OBLIGATION. I don’t remember having read any objections to my POST. I have not placed any ADs and it is dishonest of you to imply this. >Since you have ignored that, you should expect to be mocked, and suffer the

inevitable loss of credibility. How can anyone take you seriously, when you aren’t communicating? I don’t remember any request not to post messages in this free and democratic newsgroup full of people wanting to solve a problem for which I KNOW there is a solution and wish to share with you. >Perhaps if you made a full disclosure about the exact ingredients you are

testing, and the preliminary results that have obtained, you might be taken seriously. I cannot disclose the ingredients as they are not mine to disclose, the results of treatment are available for viewing by any party wishing to view them and that has an interest in solving their problem once and for all. They just have to ask. >As it is, you use all the keywords that are the mark of an opportunist. Through

all history, every claim of having a psoriasis cure has been shown to be either excessive hype, or a fraud. There are surreptitious inferences which you draw and then divulge. >You haven’t given enough information for us to decide which one.

Here you presume that there IS no cure and you make judgements about the person posting without even knowing who he is let alone knowing the person. Is that dishonest or very dishonest behaviour? >No legitimate researcher would ever make the claims you are making, without

solid proof. Who says I don’t have it? >A Cure means total, permanent, remission from the disease.

I am also able to read a dictionary and my own qualifications also allow me to make the distinction. Do yours? >Not just an effective treatment. So, tell us a long story, giving us good

reason to take you seriously. I shall get some more info to the newsgroup if you want me post the AD, but I think it rather more effective when newsgroup readers try it out and report results. Don’t you? You see within the next 5 years the official clinical research will come out and 5 years of misery would have been lived by all those that were waiting for it. >Sending it as private email would be pointless. Convincing just me won’t

restore your credibility. More public hype will only bring more ridicule. I don’t think I need to convince you or anyone, you seem to need to convince yourself. Howabout trying out the method? A good way to do so, don’t you think? I believe in what I say, and have good reason to do so. If a few small minded ignorant people who want to make their lives and those of others a misery wish to ridicule, then it is their choice to do so. The intelligent ones might just listen up and try out the method, it’s free after all, and then decide who to ridicule afterwards. >Posting anonymously as Hypnos! only reinforces the idea that it’s a hoax.

That is the usenet nick of a friend of mine (I have no usenet access) >Any legitimate researchers would identify themselves, "cashers."

Are you saying that a "legitimate researcher" refers to himself as a "casher"? How odd! What does this mean? Dr. Benzon Levy Ramle, Israel >Just my opinion, but I’m sure I’m not alone.

Thanks for your opinion. The world is great because opinions do not shape destiny, action and facts do. I shall read your links later. Right now, I feel it is appropriate to respond as I have. >Here’s a couple of documents for you to read BEFORE responding:

http://www.pinch.com/skin/guide.html http://www.pinch.com/skin/pshame.html — Ed Anderson  keeper of the group archive HOW MANY OF YOU AGREE WITH MR ANDERSON? PLEASE POST YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD SO THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING OFFERED AND HOW WE ALL PERCEIVE THIS iSSUE.

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